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wardec bad joke

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Author
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2015-11-28 17:08:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP have already fixed this. Citadels which replace POS can not be pulled down faster than 24 hours meaning they will always be vulnerable to a wardec.
So corps will not be able to casually roll if they have structures.

The average war dec is nothing more than paying Concord to look the other way when you kill careless people, or those who do not fully understand what a war dec actually means and structuires in space have very little to do with war decs. Since structures in space have very little to do with the average war dec these new structures will have virtually zero impact on war decs.

Setting that part of the new structures aside I draw your attention to this dev blog.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time/

Specifically the section titled "Regarding the blueprints themselves: "
According to this blog the cost for the blue print for the hull alone for a medium will be 6 billion ISK. How many of the high sec corps are going to be able to afford 6 billion ISK just for the blueprint?
These new structures are going to have exactly ZERO affect on the average high sec war dec, their cost alone guarantees that fact.

From another point of view and looking at the costs of these new citadels one can only hope that CCP ties the ability to war dec a corp to them having a structure in space. Finally being able to form a corp with friends simply because we want to, and never having to worry about a war dec, such are the things dreams are made of. That and it will be funny to sit and read the tears from the war dec community about how unfair it is that they cannot war dec hundreds of smaller corps and that is ruining their enjoyment of the game, yes those tears would be especially tasty.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2015-11-29 00:07:49 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

The average war dec is nothing more than paying Concord to look the other way when you kill careless people, or those who do not fully understand what a war dec actually means and structuires in space have very little to do with war decs. Since structures in space have very little to do with the average war dec these new structures will have virtually zero impact on war decs.

Setting that part of the new structures aside I draw your attention to this dev blog.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time/

Specifically the section titled "Regarding the blueprints themselves: "
According to this blog the cost for the blue print for the hull alone for a medium will be 6 billion ISK. How many of the high sec corps are going to be able to afford 6 billion ISK just for the blueprint?
These new structures are going to have exactly ZERO affect on the average high sec war dec, their cost alone guarantees that fact.

From another point of view and looking at the costs of these new citadels one can only hope that CCP ties the ability to war dec a corp to them having a structure in space. Finally being able to form a corp with friends simply because we want to, and never having to worry about a war dec, such are the things dreams are made of. That and it will be funny to sit and read the tears from the war dec community about how unfair it is that they cannot war dec hundreds of smaller corps and that is ruining their enjoyment of the game, yes those tears would be especially tasty.

If I needed a BPO to ever own a Citadel, I could do it solo in less than a month if I bothered.
Of course, I could also just spend a few hundred million to buy a researched BPC off someone who owns the BPO or I could spend 600 million or a bit more to buy one already manufactured off the market.
So yes, people will have the citadels, the average corp is quite capable of acquiring them via one way or another, and they will make a difference to wardecs.

If you want to kill the person not paying attention, just learn to gank.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-11-29 05:47:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP have already fixed this. Citadels which replace POS can not be pulled down faster than 24 hours meaning they will always be vulnerable to a wardec.
So corps will not be able to casually roll if they have structures.

And if they do not have structures pick your targets better.


Unanchoring timer duration was NOT specified in dev blogs. The specified 24 hours is for anchoring. They are referred to as separate timers, so, as of yet, the unanchoring timer duration is unknown.

Well, if it is 24 hours, then hisec will not have structures. Hooray for yet another deathblow to hisec mining, which is pure necrophilia, sodomizing something which has been killed by odyssey and buried by crius.
If it is less, it's still loss of rigs every time some unicellular organism pushes concord removal button, so that depends on the usability of unrigged citadel compared to that of rigged citadel.

Donnachadh wrote:
From another point of view and looking at the costs of these new citadels one can only hope that CCP ties the ability to war dec a corp to them having a structure in space. Finally being able to form a corp with friends simply because we want to, and never having to worry about a war dec, such are the things dreams are made of. That and it will be funny to sit and read the tears from the war dec community about how unfair it is that they cannot war dec hundreds of smaller corps and that is ruining their enjoyment of the game, yes those tears would be especially tasty.

Rushing social corps without thinking is something which will be very bad.
Having only no structures in space requirement promotes their abuse by ganktards - free ganks, at no threat of wardec. Their ridiculous argument of "It's -10.0 anyway" is meaningless due to CCP non-enforcement of alts scrapping exploit (using infinite buddy invites to grab a plex for main and 51 days of playtime on a throwaway gank account).
Easy solution would be just to disallow red safety for social corps (which kind of makes sense), but it breaks lowsec - either it's permanent security loss for lowbros to shoot them, or we allow limited lowsec wardec with no security status loss and confuse everyone, or we make them free game in lowsec and they will never go there.
Therefore, social corps cannot be fit in without a compete rethinking of war dec mechanics, which is long overdue - it has been like 500% ISK inflation since the costs were introduced, which makes them too dated and simply too low for the deccer, both sides of it can easily avoid any conflict with a fairly high penalty to defender and virtually no penalty for attacker, and with the collapse of the last successful mutual war dec, the current mechanic only serves as the newbie repellent - it simply doesn't hurt anyone else (except maybe a few attackers and Kaarous going full butthurt in this and many other threads).
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-11-29 06:19:13 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
O2 jayjay wrote:
GiantJack wrote:
if i wardec someone and he leave the corp and creates a new corp
thats a real bad joke why the hell CCP is not change it

its damn easy to fix:
if a new corp is created u cannot leave it for 30 (or at least 7 days)
if u leave a corp u cannot create a new corp for 30 (or at least 7 days)

@CCP why the hell u dont change this. u like unhappy customers?

it makes the "u cannot join the same corp if left in wardec for 2? weeks" rule to a big joke if u just make a new corp


They just need to make the wardec coat and new corp cost the same.


if they do that, then they may as well just let people pay to restore Concord protection.


Yes that would work also. Turn it into a isk battle.....NVM that sounds like a horriable idea.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#25 - 2015-11-29 16:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Nevyn AuscentI wrote:
If I needed a BPO to ever own a Citadel, I could do it solo in less than a month if I bothered.
Of course, I could also just spend a few hundred million to buy a researched BPC off someone who owns the BPO or I could spend 600 million or a bit more to buy one already manufactured off the market.
So yes, people will have the citadels, the average corp is quite capable of acquiring them via one way or another, and they will make a difference to wardecs.

First in the dev blog CCP does not indicate if the the blueprints will be originals or copies only. No you cannot assume that they will be BPO's because there are at least 3 items in the game that I know of that are available as single run BPC's only, hello Nestor, Stratios and Astero we are looking at you.

If you have interpreted this correctly you will still have a 1.2 billion ISK investment in the hull alone, 600 million for the BPC and 600 million for materials. And you will still have to add the costs for all the modules, rigs etc that will turn it into something that can be used and at this point I have not seen any information from CCP on the expected costs of those items. So it is not out of the range of possibility that a fully set up medium citadel could cost between 3 and 4 billion ISK. And at that level of investment and considering the risk associated with having one I think it is safe to assume that these citadels will not be popping up in high sec like weeds in an untreated lawn.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2015-11-29 16:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Donnachadh wrote:
Nevyn AuscentI wrote:
If I needed a BPO to ever own a Citadel, I could do it solo in less than a month if I bothered.
Of course, I could also just spend a few hundred million to buy a researched BPC off someone who owns the BPO or I could spend 600 million or a bit more to buy one already manufactured off the market.
So yes, people will have the citadels, the average corp is quite capable of acquiring them via one way or another, and they will make a difference to wardecs.

First in the dev blog CCP does not indicate if the the blueprints will be originals or copies only. No you cannot assume that they will be BPO's because there are at least 3 items in the game that I know of that are available as single run BPC's only, hello Nestor, Stratios and Astero we are looking at you.

If you have interpreted this correctly you will still have a 1.2 billion ISK investment in the hull alone, 600 million for the BPC and 600 million for materials. And you will still have to add the costs for all the modules, rigs etc that will turn it into something that can be used and at this point I have not seen any information from CCP on the expected costs of those items. So it is not out of the range of possibility that a fully set up medium citadel could cost between 3 and 4 billion ISK. And at that level of investment and considering the risk associated with having one I think it is safe to assume that these citadels will not be popping up in high sec like weeds in an untreated lawn.


Dev blog states: "Like all Tech I blueprints, they will be seeded from specific NPC corporations through various areas of space, including high-security areas. We want the prices to be that high to keep a long term goal and investment for industrial players, while making sure there is gameplay involved with selling blueprint copies to third parties." And the following picture features copying time as a stat. This together strongly hints BPO. And the first line doesn't sit well with the soe ships line, explicitly saying "Like all Tech I blueprints" and 3 ships are on the very minor side of "all".

ED: CSM Citadel FAQ also says: "How will I build my Citadel? Blueprints will be available on the market."
I dare you to find a BPC on the market. Only BPOs are there.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-11-29 17:05:49 UTC
Might want to read this: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time/

Estimated prices, mod costs etc etc
Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-11-29 18:55:59 UTC
I think the problem is with you.

Why do you declare war on a corp that has no intention of fighting back?

If you wanted to disrupt their business, you accomplished that.

If you wanted to remove their structures in space, you accomplished that if they pack up, otherwise you can shoot them.

If you just wanted some easy kills done with ships that are more shiny than a catalyst that is your problem! You want other players that are not interested that much in ship-vs-ship pvp to just roll over and let you kill them.

Pick targets for war decs that give you actual fights or go pirating in low sec or wormholes if you need this thing you all claim to be the "content" your are looking for. If you don't have the balls to do that - why should CCP help you overcompensate? Why demand the content gets delivered on a silver platter?


"Wahwahwah, I paid CONCORD some ISK, CCP you have to force those miners to let me shoot them!"
Iain Cariaba
#29 - 2015-11-29 21:13:10 UTC
Varyah wrote:
Why do you declare war on a corp that has no intention of fighting back?

If you wanted to disrupt their business, you accomplished that.

Oh look, you answered your own question. Not all PvP in EvE requires a target lock. Economic warfare does exist here.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-11-30 03:28:58 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Why do you declare war on a corp that has no intention of fighting back?

If you wanted to disrupt their business, you accomplished that.

Oh look, you answered your own question. Not all PvP in EvE requires a target lock. Economic warfare does exist here.

Newbies in retrievers without even a single foreman link have about as much effect on economy as house cats on dow jones.
Let's face it, if it wasn't worth defending, than it had no economical impact whatsoever, so it wasn't economic warfare, it was just routine attempt to feel good about griefing hisec newbies out of the game.
Iain Cariaba
#31 - 2015-11-30 06:10:27 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Why do you declare war on a corp that has no intention of fighting back?

If you wanted to disrupt their business, you accomplished that.

Oh look, you answered your own question. Not all PvP in EvE requires a target lock. Economic warfare does exist here.

Newbies in retrievers without even a single foreman link have about as much effect on economy as house cats on dow jones.
Let's face it, if it wasn't worth defending, than it had no economical impact whatsoever, so it wasn't economic warfare, it was just routine attempt to feel good about griefing hisec newbies out of the game.

Not all economics is macro economics.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#32 - 2015-11-30 06:35:12 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

Newbies in retrievers without even a single foreman link have about as much effect on economy as house cats on dow jones.
Let's face it, if it wasn't worth defending, than it had no economical impact whatsoever, so it wasn't economic warfare, it was just routine attempt to feel good about griefing hisec newbies out of the game.


If only it hadn't already been conclusively shown to us that non consensual PvP has a hugely positive effect on retention.

When you shoot a miner, you're doing them a favor by showing them that parts of this game exist that are actually worth playing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-11-30 07:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If only it hadn't already been conclusively shown to us that non consensual PvP has a hugely positive effect on retention.

Too bad grief decs are not non-consensual pvp, they are either mutual avoidance fest or farming of people who weren't born with knowledge of war dec mechanics.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When you shoot a miner, you're doing them a favor by showing them that parts of this game exist that are actually worth playing.

Eve combat pvp is not worth playing until you are at least 50 million SP - as conclusively shown by CCP in their kills presentaiton.

Iain Cariaba wrote:
Not all economics is macro economics.

A newbie in retriever is nano economics (because it doesn't qualify for micro).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2015-11-30 07:20:38 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

grief decs


There is no such thing, Basil. Wardecs are never griefing.


Quote:

Eve combat pvp is not worth playing until you are at least 50 million SP


A complete, utter lie. It's people like you who are the real griefers, constantly trying to shut out new players with your vile attitudes and naysaying.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2015-11-30 07:26:22 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When you shoot a miner, you're doing them a favor by showing them that parts of this game exist that are actually worth playing.

Eve combat pvp is not worth playing until you are at least 50 million SP - as conclusively shown by CCP in their kills presentaiton.

This is 100% wrong. Even a day old character in a hero tackle t1 frigate can contribute to PvP.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-11-30 07:53:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There is no such thing, Basil. Wardecs are never griefing.

We've been over this literally more than ten times.
I've even citated the Terms of Service and quoted CCP to you.
Persistently chasing someone is harassment. Harassment is a form of griefing and forbidden by ToS I.
ToS IV further clarifies that "war", "roleplay", etc - cannot be used as an excuse to violate ToS I.
In short, it means valid target for shooting does not translate to valid target for griefing, and since grief dec is all about persistently chasing someone (who is clueless enough about concord removal mechanics to just drop corp and avoid you or do not undock) - it is actually griefing.
Now try to refute that without using lame excuses like "no it's not cuz my intracranial cabbage is stylish".


Quote:
A complete, utter lie. It's people like you who are the real griefers, constantly trying to shut out new players with your vile attitudes and naysaying.

If only it weren't conclusively demonstrated by CCP kills presentation...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#37 - 2015-11-30 07:55:52 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
*snipped out more of his repetitive whining*


Shut up, Basil.

Wardecs are never griefing, harassment, or whatever other tearful bullshit you come up with. If you cannot deal with wars, stop being in a player corp. So long as that option exists at all, you don't have a leg to stand on.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-11-30 07:57:09 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This is 100% wrong. Even a day old character in a hero tackle t1 frigate can contribute to PvP.

If you consider being a bait for killboard padders a "contribution", yes he can. If you mean doing something meaningful, no he can't.
According to CCP kills presentation, there are almost no kills scored by characters below 50m SP to characters above 50m SP. That is conclusive enough. You don't like it? Well, go be bittervethurt somewhere else.

I'll even speculate and say that most of the kills scored were in gank catalysts against freighter pilot, which is not even pvp (it makes no difference is freighter is piloted or not, so it's pve with an observer).
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-11-30 07:58:40 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Now try to refute that without using lame excuses like "no it's not cuz my intracranial cabbage is stylish".

And your arguments are?
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Shut up, Basil.

Wardecs are never griefing, harassment, or whatever other tearful bullshit you come up with. If you cannot deal with wars, stop being in a player corp. So long as that option exists at all, you don't have a leg to stand on.


Let me help you: it's not griefing BECAUSE ... (fill your argument here).

Otherwise it is griefing as stated in ToS I.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#40 - 2015-11-30 07:59:04 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
That is conclusive enough.


No, it doesn't mean anything close to what you're claiming.

Once again, shut up Basil.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.