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wardec bad joke

First post
Author
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-11-30 08:01:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
That is conclusive enough.


No, it doesn't mean anything close to what you're claiming.

Once again, shut up Basil.


Care to actually point out the difference between CCP claim and mine? No. Then, unfortunately, it does. I'm sorry for your dialectic fiasco.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2015-11-30 08:01:58 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

Quote:
A complete, utter lie. It's people like you who are the real griefers, constantly trying to shut out new players with your vile attitudes and naysaying.

If only it weren't conclusively demonstrated by CCP kills presentation...



Too bad there are "eve is easy" videos out there with sub 4m skill points, owning people left, right and centre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je5UPKssuiE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#43 - 2015-11-30 08:02:14 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

Let me help you: it's not griefing BECAUSE .


Because that particular portion of the TOS requires that someone has made a reasonable effort to get away. And if you don't drop to an NPC corp, you have not made that effort. But then I already said this, you just lack in reading comprehension.

Go ahead and ask a GM sometime. They will tell you that no amount of wars is considered griefing or harassment, and if you can't deal with wars then you need to stop being in a player corp.

It's one of the few things they will give you a consistent answer on. Your self serving, dishonest interpretation of the rules doesn't matter at all.

Wars are never griefing. Certainly not just because your dumb ass thinks they are.

Once again.

Shut up, Basil.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-11-30 08:11:21 UTC
Finally some argument-looking thing to tear apart.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because that particular portion of the TOS requires that someone has made a reasonable effort to get away. And if you don't drop to an NPC corp, you have not made that effort. But then I already said this, you just lack in reading comprehension.

Wasn't it you crying about it being exploit the last week?
Define "reasonable effort to get away", otherwise you can pull everything into this. Is not undocking for a week reasonable effort? Running 10 systems away reasonable effort?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Go ahead and ask a GM sometime. They will tell you that no amount of wars is considered griefing or harassment, and if you can't deal with wars then you need to stop being in a player corp.

There is a clear ToS and clarification that certain action during concord removal grief dec may fall within griefing. It is not a matter of GM opinion or someone else's opinion.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's one of the few things they will give you a consistent answer on. Your self serving, dishonest interpretation of the rules doesn't matter at all.

So your interpretation of vague "reasonable effort" over mine of nothing but using clarification is better? Let me help you again: BECAUSE ...

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wars are never griefing. Certainly not just because your dumb ass thinks they are.

ToS I and IV say otherwise.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Once again.

Shut up, Basil.


Are you referring to yourself by any chance?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#45 - 2015-11-30 08:16:03 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

Wasn't it you crying about it being exploit the last week?


Repeatedly rerolling corps was an exploit for a long time. I believe it should be again.

Quote:

Define "reasonable effort to get away"


Actually doing something, instead of doing nothing.

When all else fails, if you have not yet dropped to an NPC corp, you have not made a reasonable effort.

Quote:

Is not undocking for a week reasonable effort? Running 10 systems away reasonable effort?


Neither.


Quote:
It is not a matter of GM opinion or someone else's opinion.


It's a matter of GM opinion only. Not yours, certainly.


Quote:

ToS I and IV say otherwise.


That's just it, they literally don't.

Shut up, Basil.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-11-30 08:17:34 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

Quote:
A complete, utter lie. It's people like you who are the real griefers, constantly trying to shut out new players with your vile attitudes and naysaying.

If only it weren't conclusively demonstrated by CCP kills presentation...



Too bad there are "eve is easy" videos out there with sub 4m skill points, owning people left, right and centre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je5UPKssuiE


He's using experience to carefully pick targets below 50m SP, against whom he uses his vet wallet in a superfocused corner case of SP usage of a character. Real newbies neither has his experience in picking newbie targets he can't kill due to SP wall factor, nor his super-focused character, neither his deep wallet.

While he does create an exception, it is far too minor to be reconsidering the general rule. It doesn't even contradict the CCP claim (can't kill 50m SP in a straight fight), only that of mine, and not majorly so.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-11-30 08:24:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Repeatedly rerolling corps was an exploit for a long time. I believe it should be again.

Because?


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Actually doing something, instead of doing nothing.

So moving next system is a reasonable effort? It's doing something.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When all else fails, if you have not yet dropped to an NPC corp, you have not made a reasonable effort.

I stayed up docked for a week to avoid being griefed, was that not a considerable effort?

You can't claim it's neither based on that definition. Remove contradiction from your definition... or go the usual way of no argumentation whatsoever, like you typically do.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's a matter of GM opinion only. Not yours, certainly.

The rules are clear enough to not be up for opinions. If it's starting the opinion contest, it's a welcoming mat for bias and corruption.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That's just it, they literally don't.

You know it's funny that they literally do.
The whole effort things was a part of clarification, that is not a part of ToS, strictly speaking.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-11-30 08:25:56 UTC
No, what he's showing is SP matters not a jot but experience is the case.

In game where experience comes with time and so do SP independent of activity, it is hardly a shock, is it?


And no experience lets him "carefully pick targets under 50m SP"...that's ludicrous to even suggest he knows how many skills or where they are spent a pilot has.

My booster pilot has 27m skill points and most of those are in LD but I absolutely would take the pepsi challenge with him against a 50m pilot in a heartbeat.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#49 - 2015-11-30 08:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Orca Platypus wrote:

So moving next system is a reasonable effort? It's doing something.


No, it's still doing nothing. Defending yourself is doing something, and dropping to an NPC corp is doing something.

Moving one system? You might as well just suspect flag yourself and go afk on the 4-4 undock.

Quote:

I stayed up docked for a week to avoid being griefed, was that not a considerable effort?


No. Not at all.

Quote:

The rules are clear enough to not be up for opinions.


Exactly. It's just very much not in your favor.

Only their opinion matters, and their opinion is universally against your claims.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-11-30 08:40:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, what he's showing is SP matters not a jot but experience is the case.

By carefully choosing low SP targets he actually shows that SP is next to only thing that actually matters.

afkalt wrote:
In game where experience comes with time and so do SP independent of activity, it is hardly a shock, is it?

The only experience part in his play is learning to chose low SP targets in a ship they can't reliably fly.

afkalt wrote:
And no experience lets him "carefully pick targets under 50m SP"...that's ludicrous to even suggest he knows how many skills or where they are spent a pilot has.

It really is not that hard.

afkalt wrote:
My booster pilot has 27m skill points and most of those are in LD but I absolutely would take the pepsi challenge with him against a 50m pilot in a heartbeat.

And prove my point by losing.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2015-11-30 08:44:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, it's still doing nothing. Defending yourself is doing something, and dropping to an NPC corp is doing something.

One week you cry about it as an exploit, the other week you're actually... encouraging it?
Still have no definition which would reliably break things into "doing something" and "not doing something".
And defending is not possible, because attacker would either ignore you or blob you. There is no case where defending does anything, so why is it "doing something", when it should be a noteworthy example of "doing nothing"?
Your definition is still full of contradtictions.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

I stayed up docked for a week to avoid being griefed, was that not a considerable effort?


No. Not at all.

Because?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:

The rules are clear enough to not be up for opinions.


Exactly. It's just very much not in your favor.

Only their opinion matters, and their opinion is universally against your claims.


They are not in griefers favor, and I'm not the grief deccer here.
It is clear enough that grief deccing is a violation of ToS I and there is no excuse to it according to ToS IV.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#52 - 2015-11-30 08:55:32 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

One week you cry about it as an exploit, the other week you're actually... encouraging it?


Wrong. If you aren't being deliberately obtuse, then you're just too dumb to understand it.



Quote:

Because?


Do I really have to explain to you that not playing the game does not constitute having taken any action in your own defense?

Are you really that dense? (don't answer that, I already know you are. You're the numbskull that tried to convince a bunch of newbies that docking was griefing for crying out loud)


Quote:

They are not in griefers favor


There are no griefers in wardecs. It is totally in favor of the aggressors, however. If you are still in a player corp, then you have not made a reasonable effort.


Quote:

It is clear enough that grief deccing is a violation of ToS I and there is no excuse to it according to ToS IV.


There is no such thing. Wardecs are never griefing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Azrael Hyabusa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-11-30 08:55:48 UTC
My first kill was Nov 2nd 2013.

/discuss.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2015-11-30 09:35:03 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
afkalt wrote:
No, what he's showing is SP matters not a jot but experience is the case.

By carefully choosing low SP targets he actually shows that SP is next to only thing that actually matters.

afkalt wrote:
In game where experience comes with time and so do SP independent of activity, it is hardly a shock, is it?

The only experience part in his play is learning to chose low SP targets in a ship they can't reliably fly.

afkalt wrote:
And no experience lets him "carefully pick targets under 50m SP"...that's ludicrous to even suggest he knows how many skills or where they are spent a pilot has.

It really is not that hard.

afkalt wrote:
My booster pilot has 27m skill points and most of those are in LD but I absolutely would take the pepsi challenge with him against a 50m pilot in a heartbeat.

And prove my point by losing.



No he's not. He's picking ships he can fight and kill based on their visible fittings and hull choice. He's using experience, not skillpoint fuckery.

You, like a great great many people, put far too much stock in "high SP = win". You have a case given equal skill and solo, but that is so rare as to barely even be relevant. Implants/drugs would make a bigger difference.

Furthermore, should a pilot specialize then the SP "level" is essentially meaningless. If I fight a guy when I'm flying a caracal, my however many millions of SP in guns, spaceship command mean exactly nothing.

It is a mistake a great many, heck I venture most people, make at one time or another so I am not surprised that it is oft repeated; but high SP are not required to partake in PvP. The barrier for solo is marginally higher I'll freely admit, but as a fleet it's absolutely not. No, brave newbie #45714 doesn't get to be the guy in the sleipnir, with CS V chainsawing through the other fleet - what is is is support, or fast tackle enabling that fight to even happen in the first place, or keeping the sleip alive.

SPs are no barrier to PvP content, the biggest barrier is peoples own fear, their own unwillingness to even try.

The best place to learn this is not higsec, PvP there is abysmal, but get yourself into a decent low sec/NPC 0.0 outfit and learn the ropes of small gang work. I'd avoid sov 0.0 as the combat there is quite different a lot of the time, but FW, NPC 0.0 regularly have nice small roaming gangs you can fly with, contribute meaningfully to and kill stuff.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-11-30 10:10:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wrong. If you aren't being deliberately obtuse, then you're just too dumb to understand it.

Aside from obviously being right, yes, it was an intended pin in your tuches.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Do I really have to explain to you that not playing the game does not constitute having taken any action in your own defense?

Within current mechanics, this is one of the best defensive options available to the receiving end of a grief dec.
If you remain active, obviously watchlisted by grief deccer, odds of being followed around, grief decced again in new corp, or otherwise being subjected to harassment is high. Being inactive may convince the attacker to find another target to grief, and that makes it one of the best.
So, unfortunately, you have to explain why do you think one of the best defensive options is not defensive enough.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Are you really that dense? (don't answer that, I already know you are. You're the numbskull that tried to convince a bunch of newbies that docking was griefing for crying out loud)

I didn't need to convince anyone on the side of the obvious. We can do that tango again if you wish. At the moment, you were crying about dodging being an exploit, but attacker dodging somehow you were denying to be the exploit. You can't have your cake and eat it - either the dodging is an exploit and attacker is exploiting just as defender does, or neither are exploits. Considering you switched from crying about corp dropping to encouraging it as the highest defensive measure, I believe you've came to terms with the latter and it's no longer an issue on your double standards sheet.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There are no griefers in wardecs. It is totally in favor of the aggressors, however. If you are still in a player corp, then you have not made a reasonable effort.

The definition of "reasonable effort", one contradiction-free portion please, no salt.
The above was a joke, but there is no denying that your "effort" grade still have gaps, and also no denying your waiter-level argumentation deficiency. Oops, you were making an effort and I spoiled it, I am sorry.


Quote:

It is clear enough that grief deccing is a violation of ToS I and there is no excuse to it according to ToS IV.


There is no such thing. Wardecs are never griefing.
[/quote]

ToS I and IV quite clearly spell otherwise.
So here we go again: Wardecs are never griefing despite falling into griefing category according to ToS, because... ?
Iain Cariaba
#56 - 2015-11-30 10:13:54 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
afkalt wrote:
No, what he's showing is SP matters not a jot but experience is the case.

By carefully choosing low SP targets he actually shows that SP is next to only thing that actually matters.

This is complete and utter bullshit. I'll use myself as an example.

~65mil SP
Perfect gunnery support skills.
Perfect missile support skills.
Perfect drone skills, except for fighters.
Perfect core skills.
With the exception of Amarr and Minmatar t2 battleships, there isn't a subcap in the game I can't fly.

With all that, every single time I go roaming lowsec for solo PvP, I get my ass handed to me by people who have only been in the game for a few months. Why? Because I learned PvP out in nullsec with the big sov blocks. I do well in small to large fleets, but I never really learned solo PvP, so I suck at it. I've lost t2 fit pirate frigs to t1 fit t1 frigs because the 6 month old character flying it knew more about solo PvP than I do.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#57 - 2015-11-30 10:17:42 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
You can't have your cake and eat it - either the dodging is an exploit and attacker is exploiting just as defender does, or neither are exploits.


Dec dodging should be an exploit.

And if you don't want to deal with wars, you don't belong in a player corp.

The two are not contradictory.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-11-30 10:29:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No he's not. He's picking ships he can fight and kill based on their visible fittings and hull choice. He's using experience, not skillpoint fuckery.

He obviously is.

afkalt wrote:
You, like a great great many people, put far too much stock in "high SP = win". You have a case given equal skill and solo, but that is so rare as to barely even be relevant. Implants/drugs would make a bigger difference.

SP is required to use implants, not to mention wallet. For even the lowest of specialization skills, 1 extra level is a built-in 2% implant. Thus SP beats implants easily - you can have only 10 implants, but there's a lot more than 10 relevant skills.
In the end, NOTHING makes more difference than the ultimate force multiplier of eve universe - SP. Not even wallet.

afkalt wrote:
Furthermore, should a pilot specialize then the SP "level" is essentially meaningless. If I fight a guy when I'm flying a caracal, my however many millions of SP in guns, spaceship command mean exactly nothing.

You are able to pilot a ship which reliably counters whatever the specialized guy brings. If you got caught in a wrong ship, this is effectively you self-destructing where he just happened to be there, where everyone in comparable ship could've been in his place. It's your loss, but not his win.

afkalt wrote:
It is a mistake a great many, heck I venture most people, make at one time or another so I am not surprised that it is oft repeated; but high SP are not required to partake in PvP. The barrier for solo is marginally higher I'll freely admit, but as a fleet it's absolutely not. No, brave newbie #45714 doesn't get to be the guy in the sleipnir, with CS V chainsawing through the other fleet - what is is is support, or fast tackle enabling that fight to even happen in the first place, or keeping the sleip alive.

High SP is not a requirement to participate, it is a requirement to actually kill anyone. If you're fine participating as a free target due to SP deficiency, fine, do that, however, once again, as stated by CCP kills presentation, the struggle to kill anyone who is above the SP wall will prove near-impossible.
The brave newbie #45714's fleet participation of a juicy bait to "pro" killboard targets which can tell a free kill by seeing his age is a participation too, I guess.

afkalt wrote:
SPs are no barrier to PvP content, the biggest barrier is peoples own fear, their own unwillingness to even try.

The best place to learn this is not higsec, PvP there is abysmal, but get yourself into a decent low sec/NPC 0.0 outfit and learn the ropes of small gang work. I'd avoid sov 0.0 as the combat there is quite different a lot of the time, but FW, NPC 0.0 regularly have nice small roaming gangs you can fly with, contribute meaningfully to and kill stuff.

The biggest barrier to PvP content is overcoming the crucifying pain of being hit with the SP wall, when you realize there are years before you will become anything bigger than a free target.
The hisec has more kills than any other area - the leet hisec peeveepeer like Kaarous here surely can tell you why - it's because this is the best place for a high SP toon to be farming low SP toons who have no chance to fight back due to SP deficiency.
Sov 0.0 combat is now the great place for a 50 million SP starter-level pvp players, as fights for nodes are done in small mobile ships, in what is close to a small gang format.
Oh I bet a bittervet like yourself would love to see more newbro roams of free kills available, so it comes at no surprise that you would encourage them. For newbies it surely will be a horrible experience of being hit by SP wall of yours right in the face, but I guess it doesn't matter to you. You'll make Kaarous-level excuses by stating that stepping out to lowsec they have made themselves targets and if not you someone else would slap them with SP wall in the face, but in the end, you'll just farm them for pleasure and tears and there's nothing they can do until SP wall is crossed, at which point all leet peeveepeers would start avoiding them.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2015-11-30 10:35:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dec dodging should be an exploit.

Because your bladder content infused intracranial cabbage is acting up again, or... because?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And if you don't want to deal with wars, you don't belong in a player corp.

Contradictory with the previous statement.
You are confused. Either you claim an exploit, then I point out your double-standards again, or you encourage it again, in which case I keep mocking you for 180 degree turn.
Unless you go back to exploit song which makes your turn 360 degrees and adds extra space hilarity as you don't even know what are you claiming anymore.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The two are not contradictory.

The one is self-contradictory, because attacker dodging of his own dec must then be an exploit also, or neither must be an exploit.

As expected, instead of being constructive, you jumped into the old dance again, where you have been had thousands of times, but just want another go... inb4 lock.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#60 - 2015-11-30 10:36:04 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

The biggest barrier to PvP content is overcoming the crucifying pain of being hit with the SP wall


Which doesn't exist.

So the biggest barrier to PvP content for new players is overcoming poisonous, bullshit attitudes like yours.

Like I said before, it's carebears like you who are the real griefers, trying to force new players to mine for months before they actually play the real game.

Pathetic.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.