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[December] Remote Rep Tiericide and Falloff

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-11-26 22:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Logibro
Hey everyone! We're ready to get feedback on the changes to Remote Reps planned for our Operation Frostline release on December 8th. These changes are designed to be introduced alongside the new T2 Logistics Frigates.

Few notes about this plan:
  • This includes a full Module Tiericide pass on the Remote Armor Repairers, Remote Shield Boosters and Remote Hull Repairers. We are not adding new types of reppers at this time, but we are considering doing so in the near future (potentially large deadspace reps and/or named and faction hull reps).
  • Remote armor, shield and hull reps all now have falloff (this falloff reduces effectiveness as you get further from your target, just like the neut falloff)
  • Armor reps are more focused on optimal, Shield reps are more focused on falloff.
  • Frigate logistics skews further towards falloff, while cruiser and larger bonuses tend to apply equally to both optimal and falloff.
  • Rep cycle times are getting slower (~20% slower for armor reps and ~60% slower for shield reps). This will make target switching more powerful against overwhelming logi numbers, and increase danger of overhealing. Overall providing more room for very good logi pilots to shine.
  • Overall rep/s is remaining fairly constant since rep amount per cycle is increasing.
  • Capacitor use on shield and armor reps has increased a bit. Logistics ships are getting larger cap pools (but not better cap/s recharge) to compensate. Overall this makes it harder to be fully cap stable but easier to fly with a logi that isn't quite cap stable if you're not repping constantly.
  • Base ranges on the reps have increased, and ship range bonuses are smaller to compensate. This makes the skill curve less steep and buffs non-range bonused RR ships such as RRBS and T3 Cruiser logi.
  • Shield reps are getting reduced CPU and increased powergrid requirements. Shield logi fittings are being adjusted to match. This change makes it much more reasonable to fit shield RR on non-bonused ships and goes a long way to alleviating the fitting problems on shield carriers.
  • We're not adding falloff to Remote Energy Transfers in this release, although that is still in our plan for later.
  • We're increasing the base range of Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitters by ~17%, but reducing the bonus on carriers/supercarriers so bonused range stays the same while unbonused range increases.

    • We're not doing a full balance pass on the other logi ships in this release, but there are some tweaks:
  • Fitting changes for shield logi (extra pwg, less cpu) as mentioned above
  • Increased cap pools with recharge time increased so that cap/s recharge stays similar
  • T2 Logi Cruiser rep drone bonuses will apply to all types just like the T1 Support Cruiser bonus
  • All T1 and T2 Cruiser Rep Drone bonuses will now apply to hull rep drones as well as armor and shield

    • Range bonuses are being adjusted to match the new base module ranges and falloff addition:
  • T2 Cruiser Logi: 60% Optimal and Falloff per level (62% for the Etana)
  • T1 Support Cruisers: 430% Optimal and Falloff role bonus
  • Armor logi frigate (T1 and T2): 50% Optimal, 600% Falloff role bonus
  • Shield logi frigate (T1 and T2): 300% Falloff role bonus
  • Carriers, Supercarriers, Rorqual: 40% Optimal and Falloff per level

Exact stats for the Remote Rep modules can be found in this spreadsheet.

Here are some example falloff curves for a few ship classes. These always assume max skills and T2 repair modules:
[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68815/1/LogiFrigates.jpg[/img]
[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68815/1/T1SupportCruisers.jpg[/img]
[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68815/1/T2LogiCruisers.jpg[/img]
[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68815/1/CapitalReps.jpg[/img]

Non-LogiFrig Ship changes:

Basilisk:
Shield Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull)
PWG: 1050 (+225)
CPU: 460 (-50)
Capacitor Pool: 2100 (+725)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 467s (+165.75s)

Scimitar:
Shield Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull)
PWG: 735 (+185)
CPU: 445 (-50)
Capacitor Pool: 1750 (+500)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 390s (+111.25s)

Guardian:
Armor Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull)
Capacitor Pool: 2250 (+750)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 500s (+165s)

Oneiros:
Armor Rep Range bonus is now +60% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones (armor, shield and hull)
Capacitor Pool: 1925 (+550)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 430s (+123.1s)

Etana:
Shield Rep Range bonus is now +62% optimal and falloff per level (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
Rep drone bonus now applies to all rep drones
PWG: 1150 (+250)
CPU: 520 (-40)
Capacitor Pool: 3000 (+996)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 420s (+141.25s)

Osprey:
Shield Rep Range role bonus is now +430% optimal and falloff (with base module ranges increased to compensate)
PWG: 470 (+45)
CPU: 380 (-30)
Capacitor Pool: 2100 (+725)
Capacitor Recharge Time: 420s (+145s)

Scythe:
Shield Rep Range role bonus is now +430% optimal and falloff (with base...

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2 - 2015-11-26 22:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Update November 29th:
We've also adjusted the rep range bonus on the Nestor, which will now get +100% optimal and falloff to remote armor repairers.
This is still a significant buff to Nestor range, as will be going from its current range of 25.2km to a new range of 28.8km optimal and 8.4km falloff.

We've also reverted the PWG increase on the T2 large armor rep. It's now back to 660.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Araneatrox
I like space and spaceships
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
#3 - 2015-11-26 22:53:58 UTC
Does the T2 Cruiser logi still include the Cap reduction and Fitting requirements reduction?

As it isn't mentioned and there is a large buff to Cap amount and Cap Recharge.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-11-26 22:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Is there a reason shield is taking such a bit cycle hit vs armor? Feels a little homogenous. The differences before were interesting.

Cap changes also hurt all non logi using these mods (RR non logi hull was still a thing) is this accepted and intentional nerf to these ships?

Will the Nestor see changes too? It seems to have been overlooked.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2015-11-26 22:56:44 UTC
Araneatrox wrote:
Does the T2 Cruiser logi still include the Cap reduction and Fitting requirements reduction?

As it isn't mentioned and there is a large buff to Cap amount and Cap Recharge.


Yes the bonuses that aren't explicitly mentioned are staying the same.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Ariz Black
#6 - 2015-11-26 22:58:02 UTC
Fozzie what about the Nestor? And T3 logi?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-11-26 22:59:23 UTC
What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield?

I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-11-26 23:04:44 UTC
What about Nestor and T3 logi subsystem? any changes there?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-11-26 23:05:16 UTC
Oh and rep drones?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#10 - 2015-11-26 23:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
interesting changes, i like the cycle time variation and the falloff too optimal differences with shields and armour, not sure what the logi drone changes are about some more info on that would be nice, i like the frig ranges they seem fair, BUT cruiser rep ranges are still too strong, same with e-war cruisers really,
perhaps you could consider a better scaling system maybe that includes battleship getting the longer range and cruiser ranges being nerfed down a fair bit, after all cruisers have mobility too move around the battlefield battleships could be like sentry reps/e-war easy too catch but have projection too make up for it and cruisers/frigs have mobility too project theirs.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-11-26 23:20:43 UTC
Rowells wrote:
What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield?

I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different?


Because shield is easy mode and applies at the start of the cycle - armor reps apply at the end.

Increased cycle time is only a tiny nerf for shield, but a very big one for armor.
Anthar Thebess
#12 - 2015-11-26 23:20:49 UTC
When we will get pirate faction logi ship and(or) faction modules, in pirate faction LP stores?

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#13 - 2015-11-26 23:21:54 UTC
Nice

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2015-11-26 23:29:22 UTC
Could you please consider giving Amarr logi ships of all types the distinctive racial larger drone bay feature? It would be great fun to be able to have 25m3 / 75m3 on a Guardian so we could bring a full flight of each type of light rep drone.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
4chan SlashPOL
Trillium Invariant
Honorable Third Party
#15 - 2015-11-26 23:41:53 UTC
Reserved
Carthereon Crust
EVE University
Ivy League
#16 - 2015-11-26 23:44:51 UTC
Will current Logistics ships be receiving a buff to their base targeting range?

Some of the ships (namely Minmatar) already deal with only having a few km between their max rep and target range. With falloff I imagine there's going to be a discrepancy between potential range and targeting range on some of these ships.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-11-26 23:47:19 UTC
I think it is a good start. I should post in a new features and idea, but other thoughts to add potentially. Mostly cause while the changes help, it will not resolve the n+1 issue.


  1. Is lock range increasing? As a logi pilot, an increase in lock time in exchange for lock range I feel would make for some interesting fits. That said, sebus for range, but I think the new range usage on these will be lost in short lock ranges.
  2. Brought it up in stream, but can we in the future look at a subcap version of a triage modules? So get the resist, local rep and a range bonus for the module but then lose ability to receive reps? Still move is the difference
  3. If we get above, can we get a logi battleship for the large reps? Then we can have T2 cruisers be medium reps.


To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-11-26 23:49:13 UTC
Carthereon Crust wrote:
Will current Logistics ships be receiving a buff to their base targeting range?

Some of the ships (namely Minmatar) already deal with only having a few km between their max rep and target range. With falloff I imagine there's going to be a discrepancy between potential range and targeting range on some of these ships.


Fit Sensor boosters?
g4llentes0ldier
P0co holdings
#19 - 2015-11-26 23:59:28 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
Rowells wrote:
What's the reasoning for having the rep cycle as -20% -60% for armor and shield?

I understand the point about more chance to mis-rep, but why are they so significantly different?


Because shield is easy mode and applies at the start of the cycle - armor reps apply at the end.

Increased cycle time is only a tiny nerf for shield, but a very big one for armor.



Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range.
Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this
Rmage Gemmell
Unrelated Intentions
#20 - 2015-11-27 00:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rmage Gemmell
So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ?

You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ?

Logi frigs that can repp at 40+ k. Lovely.

Don't you think you should set that warp to distance at more than 200k now ?
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