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[December] Remote Rep Tiericide and Falloff

First post First post
Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#21 - 2015-11-27 00:29:55 UTC
Interesting changes coming... I like it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Desiderya
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2015-11-27 00:36:42 UTC
"noone is complaining about the state of logi in the game"

Quote of the ages.


Anyways, looking forward to playing these changes.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-11-27 01:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
g4llentes0ldier wrote:
Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range.
Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this


You are misunderstanding the changes.
The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more.

The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster.

For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied.
To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield.
Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor)


Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor.


EDIT: The more I think about it... in most situations the decreased cycle time will actually be a buff for shield instead of a nerf:
Imagine you just managed to lock someone as he enters structures. If you now give him a small shield boost he might get volleyd before the next cycle starts, but with a bigger boost he survives that volley and catches reps.

The only situation the bigger shield boost+longer cylce time is a nerf is when you are bad and activate too many boosters at once or too early.
For armor it's always a nerf.
g4llentes0ldier
P0co holdings
#24 - 2015-11-27 01:13:40 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
g4llentes0ldier wrote:
Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range.
Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this


You are misunderstanding the changes.
The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more.

The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster.

For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied.
To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield.
Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor)


Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor.


Yes and once they are in the falloff the amount repped goes down. even with the boost to amount for shields if you have a Armor and a shield logi both sitting at 60km the Armor one will rep more and faster than a shield one.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-11-27 01:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
g4llentes0ldier wrote:
Yes and once they are in the falloff the amount repped goes down. even with the boost to amount for shields if you have a Armor and a shield logi both sitting at 60km the Armor one will rep more and faster than a shield one.


No, they don't.
Look at the graphs that Fozzie posted.
Above a certain range shield starts to rep more than armor.
PlantythePottedPlant
Colorful Fruit Chews
Wild Geese.
#26 - 2015-11-27 01:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PlantythePottedPlant
I might be wrong in the long run, but 4.4k optimal on the shield logistic frigates (T1 and T2) seems too short. Looking at the shield logistics cruisers, you have something like 40-50% of the old range is the optimal, but for the Bantam, Burst, and the two T2 variants thereof, you're looking at roughly 16% of the old range being optimal.

I watched the stream video, and you said you wanted the frigates to rely more on falloff than their cruiser counterparts, but I feel like this is too much. If I have to be within blaster range of a fight to effectively rep the same as pre-patch, that doesn't seem like a good change for a ship that really doesn't get that much use as it is (burst + bantam).

It might lend itself to some clutch manual piloting, which is probably what I'll try to do if the patch comes out unchanged from the current Sisi build, but I just wanted to ask you to rethink that optimal range and how it compares to the cruisers. The T1 frigates just don't have to tank the be that close to fights, and it effectively makes them significantly less useful than they were before. Maybe that's the intention, because frigate shield logistics ships were overpowered (?), but I don't see how anyone would have that opinion.

All I ask is like 10k optimal, or even like 7-8k, start the slope a bit later. When you're starting at the same reps, and sloping off from that, you're looking at a straight nerf, because past 30k, <70% of the 96 or so hp/s it was repping in the first place is next to nothing in any engagement worth having logistics at in the first place.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#27 - 2015-11-27 01:39:47 UTC
Any chance we will also see Ancillary remote repair mods? .. increase the rep amount then add a 40 second reload

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Circumstantial Evidence
#28 - 2015-11-27 01:55:26 UTC
The combination of adding falloff to neutralizers, with this change bringing support ships closer to their fleet if they want to ensure max reps, is going to make a much more challenging battlefield.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#29 - 2015-11-27 02:03:49 UTC
I am hoping that PYFA gets these updates loaded in soon, because it's really dangerous to make proclamations on stuff when the cap pool of guardians is going up (because they need more cap!) and cap recharge is getting slower. Because, yeah, we all use native cap regen on the most OP logi in the game.

You are aware that more capacitor equals harder to neut out, right?

The other thing is to note that to all intents and purposes armour cruiser logi hasn't really changed at all. You'll still be running Guards at 50km with 100% rep efficiency, and dodging Geddon neuts quite effectively.

Sure, slower armour rep cycles mean a slight chance of an aggro swap causing problems (max 12s now to swap reps vs 10s perviously) but most aggro swaps only result in kills when the Guardian blob is being damped, jammed or neuted. i'm not seeing a great deal of difference here.

But, without a lot of time to go through and double-check the effects of these cycle, cap use and rep amount changes ship by ship...over the 40 or so logi hulls in game...its just looking like cementing armour in vs shield.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2015-11-27 02:13:24 UTC
Wow. This seems like quite the nerf to logi. Even my proposal wasn't this drastic.

I'm intrigued, however, by the increased use of falloff in systems that previously didn't have it. Could missiles be in for an eventual falloff treatment, I wonder? And will this new falloff system (instead of increased chance of miss - decreased effectiveness) eventually be applied to other ewar? I know that was asked in the neut nerf thread, but I didn't see a reply there.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#31 - 2015-11-27 02:13:34 UTC
Still unbonussed RR remains not viable in general.

That is a good chance to get rid of game breaking 90000% bonues like we have now.

500% bonus to rep range on t1 hull, to make it actually work? Well... not good.

Maybe make base range 250% batter than now live and have logi only 100% better?

same for logi, but waaaay more viable for T3 logi and RR gangs that dare to use MWD.




Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch and Tea
#32 - 2015-11-27 03:46:01 UTC
Are the targeting ranges of the logi class getting a buff as well?

Because you don't mention this at all.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#33 - 2015-11-27 03:56:12 UTC
I use RR on my drones during missions. Thus, its not a typical logistics ship that I am using. What does the dropoff curve look like for the typical ship used for L4 missions, like a Navy Domi or a 'snake?

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Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-11-27 04:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyjil Lizaru
On one hand, these changes sound really interesting and fun; and an elegant answer to the 'problem of logi'.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that the actual flying of logi needed more complexity and/or stress.

Regardless, I look forward to seeing if my sanity can survive this!

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-11-27 04:56:12 UTC
I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-11-27 05:25:27 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun.



Seconded this. Not only will it help balance Logi and make it more skill requiring, it actually makes it far more fun!

For example: I was on sisi today testing, doing the good ol CA1, rr neutrals. No longer is it suddenly a person is .5km out of range and poof, everything is off. There is a buffer to say "turn your ass around and get back" as you watch the reps start to fall off. Makes it quite exciting actually and more involved for both parties. Very much feeling like a win all around.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Sosi Midragi
EF air force
Fraternity.
#37 - 2015-11-27 05:54:23 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
I'd just like to go on-record as saying that CCP Fozzie & team have exceeded my expectations on this one. Having played with the fitting of ships and working out a quick breakdown of how things will be working on Sisi, I can safely say that I love these changes. This is going to make everything more fun.



Seconded this. Not only will it help balance Logi and make it more skill requiring, it actually makes it far more fun!

For example: I was on sisi today testing, doing the good ol CA1, rr neutrals. No longer is it suddenly a person is .5km out of range and poof, everything is off. There is a buffer to say "turn your ass around and get back" as you watch the reps start to fall off. Makes it quite exciting actually and more involved for both parties. Very much feeling like a win all around.


Whow this must be the solo best reasone these changes are good /sarcasem
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2015-11-27 06:28:19 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
g4llentes0ldier wrote:
Even so shield reps will now take 7.2 sec per cycle where as Armor will take 6.3 sec per cycle so over time shields reps cannot match armour reps and shields will have a shorter optimal range.
Basically go with Armor ships and reps after this


You are misunderstanding the changes.
The amount repaired per second didn't change. They cycle slower, but boost more.

The only thing this changes for shield is that you let your target drop a little bit lower before activating the shield booster.

For armor the changes are much more severe, because it will take longer until the rep actually gets applied.
To be honest I don't think armor even needs this nerf, considering how little impact this will have on shield.
Personally I would have just nerfed the scan resolution of logis instead. (since it would have the same impact on shield and armor)


Yes, the optimal range of shield is shorter, but the falloff is a lot longer, meaning that at longer ranges shield actually reps more than armor.


EDIT: The more I think about it... in most situations the decreased cycle time will actually be a buff for shield instead of a nerf:
Imagine you just managed to lock someone as he enters structures. If you now give him a small shield boost he might get volleyd before the next cycle starts, but with a bigger boost he survives that volley and catches reps.

The only situation the bigger shield boost+longer cylce time is a nerf is when you are bad and activate too many boosters at once or too early.
For armor it's always a nerf.

in most situations, being in structure as a shield taker means a lot of other things went wrong. If he's in structure once you lock him, is it not reasonable to assume hell be back in structure, if not further (or deader) due to the longer rep time?
Medria Lennelluc
Know your Role
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2015-11-27 06:30:45 UTC
Will the Optimal/Falloff be tied to Racial Cruiser level or to Logistics level? (the 60% for Scimitar for example)
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-11-27 06:32:34 UTC
Rmage Gemmell wrote:
So let me get this straight .... a Scimmy/Scythe/Basi/Osprey can now pump shield HP at 100k ?

You don't see a problem here with warp distance being at 150k and the small guy trying to separate gangs ?

Logi frigs that can repp at 40+ k. Lovely.

Don't you think you should set that warp to distance at more than 200k now ?


At 100km they are going to do 22% of current rep. You'll need 5 of those to be as good as a single one.
Overall it's a major nerf - the maximum efficiency stays the same, range is nerfed (you have to be closer to give full reps, especially shield), efficiency is nerfed (if you aren't close, you're ****, especially with armor).

Even though I've done MOST of my pvp in a logi, I don't really care, as long as the other guy is hit equally hard. This change doesn't really give any side any more advantage than N+1 would usually give.