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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Author
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#561 - 2015-11-17 06:28:40 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong.

The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high.

I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.

If its heavy tackle why can a thorax outrun it while its tackled?

Because CCP has such a hard-on for gallente that they made the Thorax to make their feelings manifest?
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#562 - 2015-11-17 06:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Templar Dane wrote:
This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship.

[Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher]
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'.


We don't plan to change the plates or the resists. T2 400mm's are just fitting and mass inefficient, the armour resists are already about as insane as they can go, we could add an extra 200mm plate, but we are going with a small armour repairer instead.

It has the cap to run one stable, and it will generate a 200mm plate worth of armour in about 20 seconds, and to kill that buffer in less time than that requires about 950 applied dps, which would be a lost fight anyway. Usually mixing active and buffer is no good, but in this scenario the enormous buffer allows the ship to always stay alive long enough under heavy fire for the repper to be more effective at adding further buffer than any other use of the 5th low.

Finally makes use of all the capacitor that's currently going to waste, and even allows the ship to fully heal between engagements, putting an end to needing to repair it in station between fights. All round just by far the best addition for our needs.

After that we're just changing the afterburner to an enduring and the 3x 125mm guns into 4x 150mm guns.

The fit has put our tackler in first place with the punisher for around the last half a year. Since last month we've moved on to the top 10 of all-time with it. So I'd say regardless of whether you think it "makes the ship", it's certainly useful to us, and the best option out there.

Tackling and tanking while something else snipes is indeed 100% completely exactly precisely reassuredly undoubtedly what we do with it. It's a perfectly valid fleet role, it has it's niche, it does it's job. You may want it to do something different, but I submit that there are a dozen better frigates for those uses. Even if there was not, then we simply disagree over what we each personally would like it to be, not whether or not it has any use.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#563 - 2015-11-17 06:54:21 UTC
Going to steer the convo away from the punisher here for a bit since obviously people can't agree on what it already does well.

I'd like to point out the fact that the t1 frigate lineup does need quite a bit more work than you're putting into it, particularly with the fast tackle frigates. Here's a few ideas to throw out into the open for discussion

-Instead of the punisher going with 4 guns and no damage bonus, why not the executioner? Going with a 4th gun, and dropping the damage bonus for tracking speed would be perfect for it as it could apply its dps with beams much more effectively

-The Condor's utility high slot is next to useless as the only common fits for them use light missiles. The addition of another mid slot would be excellent in promoting its utility with electronic warfare and shield tanking, as it makes a spectacular solo or fleet tackle ship for its price in any setting.

-The Rifter is a joke. Nobody gets any real usage out of the falloff bonus and the dps is pitiful enough at close ranges to make long-range kiting pointless, not to mention its horrible performance as an arty boat. Drop the range bonus for a 5% RoF bonus to bring it into the same family as the Rupture, Hurricane and Tempest. The extra dps will immediately make it much more attractive, and to top it off, you could drop the utility high slot for a mid, giving it excellent utility for armor or shield.

-Give the Slasher more powergrid so it can use arty effectively. It has good potential as an alternative to the Thrasher for a small arty boat, but lacks the fitting space to realize it.

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.

-Give the Merlin the proposed treatment of the Punisher with an extra slot and 4 guns, while swapping out the damage bonus on it for optimal range. We are currently lacking a t1 frigate with an optimal range bonus to take advantage for with rails, and the Merlin would be an excellent choice.

-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#564 - 2015-11-17 08:21:15 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#565 - 2015-11-17 09:23:18 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.


its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one.

Current iteration of CNI is just garbage.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#566 - 2015-11-17 14:31:22 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.


its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one.

Current iteration of CNI is just garbage.

It's an ok e-war frig and will be better after missile TDs get added and there is other thread about CNI so no point discussing it here. If you still want to make semi-combat ship out of e-war one think about what you will add to vigil, griffin and maulus.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#567 - 2015-11-17 19:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.

-The Arbitrator and Bellicose are ewar cruisers and both are competent combat vessels in their own right, there's no good reason not to do something similar to the frigates.

-The tormentor in this proposal would have its drones removed, so the dps would drop off to compensate

-A crucifier with a full drone bay is just fine as it's unbonused. The vigil's TP role is fine without combat buffs because it immediately benefits the rest of the fleet's damage in any given setting, wheres TDs are more situational. That being said, moving a mid to a high slot, an extra launcher and a 5% firing rate bonus to light and rocket launchers would be fine.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#568 - 2015-11-17 19:25:21 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Mad Abbat wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.


its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one.

Current iteration of CNI is just garbage.

It's an ok e-war frig and will be better after missile TDs get added and there is other thread about CNI so no point discussing it here. If you still want to make semi-combat ship out of e-war one think about what you will add to vigil, griffin and maulus.

I'd be fine with the vigil getting buffed for combat, but classically the Blackbird and Celestis don't get combat bonuses (even though i think they should). Consistent progression is preferable in any case, and having the Vigil and the Crucifier be combat-capable would be ideal.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#569 - 2015-11-18 00:49:08 UTC
Nice.

Really looking forward to the drone bay increase on the Sac.

How about hull rework on the Navy Osprey? The artwork, I mean.

Do not run. We are your friends.

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#570 - 2015-11-18 09:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

-Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range.
-Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.

No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.

-The Arbitrator and Bellicose are ewar cruisers and both are competent combat vessels in their own right, there's no good reason not to do something similar to the frigates.

-The tormentor in this proposal would have its drones removed, so the dps would drop off to compensate

-A crucifier with a full drone bay is just fine as it's unbonused. The vigil's TP role is fine without combat buffs because it immediately benefits the rest of the fleet's damage in any given setting, wheres TDs are more situational. That being said, moving a mid to a high slot, an extra launcher and a 5% firing rate bonus to light and rocket launchers would be fine.

Sorry man then we agree to disagree, just see no point shuffling stats on things which already work. Tormentor is a good ship atm and even buff proposed by fozzie in this thread wasn't really needed, cruci is ok ship too at what it does (with only one heated td it makes 70km beam fessors in to 20km one, pulse nomen get it scorch range to something close to heated web range etc.)

And imo it would be better for CCP to take a second look at some already rebalanced mods/rigs like transverse bulkhead rigs, small beams etc. for polish than reinventing bicycles basically with things that we already have and tend to work fine.
Lidia Caderu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2015-11-18 10:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Why not to just to leave punisher stats as is, and remove turret bonus compleatly? Add addtional 3 launcher slots, so players may do what they want with punusher. second bonus may be as CCP wants.
Only add some additional CPU.
DeadDuck
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#572 - 2015-11-18 11:11:57 UTC
Anyone knows when these changes are being upload in singularity ?

Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#573 - 2015-11-18 11:21:55 UTC
maybe give the vaga some love...munin is probably the least used hac in the game too, out performed and cost ineffective compared to nado/arty cane
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2015-11-20 00:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xzanos
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Breacher:
The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement.
  • -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s

  • Rifter and Slasher:
    Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs.
  • Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG
  • Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG


  • Will look at some fittings in Python to see what these changes really can do for the ships. 80 % of Minmatar ships really need some love but i think that the projectile weapon system is really the issue that needs to be reworked.

    Things are still a bit tight on the fittings but i think its a good start, maybe go with something like this.
  • Rifter: +7 CPU, +5 PWG
  • Slasher: +6 CPU, +4 PWG

  • Not sure what to say about the breacher. But i think it role needs to be reworked. It just doesn't do rockets or light missiles as well as a Kestrel.

    And to everyone who thinks that the new Punisher changes are bad.. 14k EHP on a frigate with above 60% resists across the board seem a little OP to me, add in some logi and go to town. It may still may not be the best suited for 1v1 unless kite fit but i think this is a HUGE buff to this ship.

    *activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

    Shalashaska Adam
    Snakes and Lasers
    #575 - 2015-11-21 02:26:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
    Xzanos wrote:

    And to everyone who thinks that the new Punisher changes are bad.. 14k EHP on a frigate with above 60% resists across the board seem a little OP to me, add in some logi and go to town. It may still may not be the best suited for 1v1 unless kite fit but i think this is a HUGE buff to this ship.


    It does 17,358 EHP already, 19,038 EHP in a fleet.

    5133 / 5646 armour HP, with 76 / 69 / 64 / 62 resists.

    Add an additional 200mm tungsten plate in December:

    5633 / 6196 armour HP, 20,773 EHP in total.
    Xzanos
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #576 - 2015-11-21 17:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Xzanos
    Shalashaska Adam wrote:
    Xzanos wrote:

    And to everyone who thinks that the new Punisher changes are bad.. 14k EHP on a frigate with above 60% resists across the board seem a little OP to me, add in some logi and go to town. It may still may not be the best suited for 1v1 unless kite fit but i think this is a HUGE buff to this ship.


    It does 17,358 EHP already, 19,038 EHP in a fleet.

    5133 / 5646 armour HP, with 76 / 69 / 64 / 62 resists.

    Add an additional 200mm tungsten plate in December:

    5633 / 6196 armour HP, 20,773 EHP in total.


    WOW yeah i was looking more into it after i made this post. Why is everyone so salty about the punisher? Its like the golden frig fleet, and it has little difference to an Imp Slicer now other than base stats and bonuses.

    *activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

    Xzanos
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #577 - 2015-11-21 17:16:47 UTC
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    The punisher is slow as crap, unagile


    Its an Amarr ship is supposed to be slow and "not agile" thats why you tank better than anything by far. Fly a different race if your looking for speed and agility.

    *activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

    Stitch Kaneland
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #578 - 2015-11-21 18:08:39 UTC
    Xzanos wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    The punisher is slow as crap, unagile


    Its an Amarr ship is supposed to be slow and "not agile" thats why you tank better than anything by far. Fly a different race if your looking for speed and agility.


    Actually the punisher is quite fast. After these changes it will be faster than a tristan. People just dont realize it or have never tested it. Its also fairly agile.

    The thing about some amarr ships, especially the ones that usually fit plates, is they have decent base speed/agility to compensate for the plates that will be put on them. If you dont weigh them down with plates and add a nano, they can be quite fast. Even moderately agile with a 10mn AB (in the punishers case).
    Shalashaska Adam
    Snakes and Lasers
    #579 - 2015-11-22 05:16:35 UTC
    With a 10MN compact AB being so easy to fit, I can see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it.

    Compensating for the lack of a web with a base afterburner speed of 2124 m/s, 2326 m/s with a nano.

    Overheat to 3246 m/s, that would be around 1300 m/s with a scram and a web on you.

    So much more interesting than just another 3 midslot frigate.
    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #580 - 2015-11-22 07:27:00 UTC
    Shalashaska Adam wrote:
    With a 10MN compact AB being so easy to fit, I can see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it.

    Compensating for the lack of a web with a base afterburner speed of 2124 m/s, 2326 m/s with a nano.

    Overheat to 3246 m/s, that would be around 1300 m/s with a scram and a web on you.

    So much more interesting than just another 3 midslot frigate.


    The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor.