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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#361 - 2015-10-29 10:22:06 UTC
Do remember 50% of build costs drop, and 50% of the fitted modules drop also based on what we have been told.
So on an XL Citadel that could be 40 Billion in loot just from build costs and modules.

Is that not enough loot?
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#362 - 2015-10-29 11:59:28 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So use a M Citadel?
Jeez, it's only a couple of hundred mil more, and you save massively on fuel costs if all you want it for is fitting and storage.


A Small Tower BPO costs 125 millions. Building it costs less than 80 millions. Buying one on the market costs less than 70 millions. A Corporate Hangar Array costs less than 5 millions. A Ship Maintenance Array costs around 20 millions.

So to replace a 95 millions POS, you suggest a theoretical 600 millions (since the BPO costs 6B, more like 0.9/1B on the market) Medium Citadel. It's not "a couple hunderd mil more."
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#363 - 2015-10-29 12:19:12 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So use a M Citadel?
Jeez, it's only a couple of hundred mil more, and you save massively on fuel costs if all you want it for is fitting and storage.


A Small Tower BPO costs 125 millions. Building it costs less than 80 millions. Buying one on the market costs less than 70 millions. A Corporate Hangar Array costs less than 5 millions. A Ship Maintenance Array costs around 20 millions.

So to replace a 95 millions POS, you suggest a theoretical 600 millions (since the BPO costs 6B, more like 0.9/1B on the market) Medium Citadel. It's not "a couple hunderd mil more."

The citadel comes with extra functionality and asset safety. Asset safety alone is worth the extra cost. You argument is not relevant.

I also understand there will be additional structures released at a later date with different functionality that may be both cheaper and offer the functionality you're looking for.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#364 - 2015-10-29 12:20:40 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So use a M Citadel?
Jeez, it's only a couple of hundred mil more, and you save massively on fuel costs if all you want it for is fitting and storage.


A Small Tower BPO costs 125 millions. Building it costs less than 80 millions. Buying one on the market costs less than 70 millions. A Corporate Hangar Array costs less than 5 millions. A Ship Maintenance Array costs around 20 millions.

So to replace a 95 millions POS, you suggest a theoretical 600 millions (since the BPO costs 6B, more like 0.9/1B on the market) Medium Citadel. It's not "a couple hunderd mil more."


And that structure costs you roughly 1.2B to operate for a year. I don't see the issue with a shift to a 600M ISK structure that has zero operating cost.
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#365 - 2015-10-29 12:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Azahar Ortenegro
Fuel cost is only shifted to fitted modules, not removed, and since it's ongoing, it can easily be paid. Oh, and a Small POS is as easily moved around or put offline to cut fuel costs, something you can't do with a Medium Citadel.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#366 - 2015-10-29 12:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Fuel cost is only shifted to fitted modules, not removed, and since it's ongoing, it can easily be paid. Oh, and a Small POS is as easily moved around or put offline to cut fuel costs, something you can't do with a Medium Citadel.

Now you're just making stuff up, Unequipping (or presumably turning them off line like you would a ship module) would mean that the citadel is no longer using fuel.

Apart from rigs(that are optional) you can unanchor and move around a citadel a LOT easier than a pos with all it's modules.

Roll

Then you have all the advantages of small invulnerability window, asset safety, ability to dock ships, tethering, the offensive features, etc.

It really feels like they're a bit too cheap but I'm not complaining Pirate

ps. I lived in a wh for a long time. dealing with POS and POS modules was the single biggest PITA in the game.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#367 - 2015-10-29 12:55:57 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Fuel cost is only shifted to fitted modules, not removed, and since it's ongoing, it can easily be paid. Oh, and a Small POS is as easily moved around or put offline to cut fuel costs, something you can't do with a Medium Citadel.


It is actually only been said that service modules cost fuel currently. The only service modules available on a M are clone services, reprocessing, and compression. All of those can be turned on only as needed. If the offensive/defensive modules require fuel, those would only be used during attack so it can be assumed that the cost of operating a Citadel is significantly less than the cost of fueling a tower 24x7

Nothing about a POS is "easy to move around" compared to a Citadel.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#368 - 2015-10-29 13:57:38 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So use a M Citadel?
Jeez, it's only a couple of hundred mil more, and you save massively on fuel costs if all you want it for is fitting and storage.


A Small Tower BPO costs 125 millions. Building it costs less than 80 millions. Buying one on the market costs less than 70 millions. A Corporate Hangar Array costs less than 5 millions. A Ship Maintenance Array costs around 20 millions.

So to replace a 95 millions POS, you suggest a theoretical 600 millions (since the BPO costs 6B, more like 0.9/1B on the market) Medium Citadel. It's not "a couple hunderd mil more."

First off all a medium is more closely related to a large. By the time you have guns/jams and spares to online hardners etc. It is not that cheap. And we chew through fuel like no tomorrow. I always Leroy in a full freighter of fuel every time we have a high sec.

Even at 7B for the large + probably 3-5B for a fit. Cost will not be a factor for us. The XL is out of our range. But then it suppose to be. As are outposts now.

Also towers are going to be around for the better part of a year. At least. You can keep your towers for a while.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#369 - 2015-10-29 14:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Azahar Ortenegro
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
First off all a medium is more closely related to a large. By the time you have guns/jams and spares to online hardners etc. It is not that cheap. And we chew through fuel like no tomorrow. I always Leroy in a full freighter of fuel every time we have a high sec.

Even at 7B for the large + probably 3-5B for a fit. Cost will not be a factor for us. The XL is out of our range. But then it suppose to be. As are outposts now.

Also towers are going to be around for the better part of a year. At least. You can keep your towers for a while.


That's my point. Outposts and Large POSes are replaced, not Small and Medium POSes.

And for the two above you: deploying a Citadel takes 1 hour and you need a TI Industrial to move it around. Anchoring then onlining a small POS takes 15 minutes, and you can move it in a Blockade Runner.

As a side note: I'm not talking for myself here. My alliance uses Large POSes, and we can afford several Citadels. But I often see temporary Small and Medium POSes in high and lowsec systems, and those guys will be kicked out of the Structure part of the game as CCP planned it.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#370 - 2015-10-29 15:20:06 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Fuel cost is only shifted to fitted modules, not removed, and since it's ongoing, it can easily be paid. Oh, and a Small POS is as easily moved around or put offline to cut fuel costs, something you can't do with a Medium Citadel.


It is actually only been said that service modules cost fuel currently. The only service modules available on a M are clone services, reprocessing, and compression. All of those can be turned on only as needed. If the offensive/defensive modules require fuel, those would only be used during attack so it can be assumed that the cost of operating a Citadel is significantly less than the cost of fueling a tower 24x7

Nothing about a POS is "easy to move around" compared to a Citadel.



from the dev blog "Modules: these are structure modules that fit into a structure’s high, medium and low slots. Similar to their ship module counterparts, they require powergrid and CPU to be properly fitted. Active modules also require capacitor, fuel, or both depending on the circumstances."

its very possible that unless you have an unfitted citadel it will require fuel.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#371 - 2015-10-29 15:31:19 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Fuel cost is only shifted to fitted modules, not removed, and since it's ongoing, it can easily be paid. Oh, and a Small POS is as easily moved around or put offline to cut fuel costs, something you can't do with a Medium Citadel.


It is actually only been said that service modules cost fuel currently. The only service modules available on a M are clone services, reprocessing, and compression. All of those can be turned on only as needed. If the offensive/defensive modules require fuel, those would only be used during attack so it can be assumed that the cost of operating a Citadel is significantly less than the cost of fueling a tower 24x7

Nothing about a POS is "easy to move around" compared to a Citadel.



from the dev blog "Modules: these are structure modules that fit into a structure’s high, medium and low slots. Similar to their ship module counterparts, they require powergrid and CPU to be properly fitted. Active modules also require capacitor, fuel, or both depending on the circumstances."

its very possible that unless you have an unfitted citadel it will require fuel.


Yes. As I noted Active modules. Much like your ship, modules are not active when they are not being used like firing guns or repairing ships. It's pretty clear that the fuel requirements for Citadels will be a magnitude less than POSes
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#372 - 2015-10-29 15:35:38 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
First off all a medium is more closely related to a large. By the time you have guns/jams and spares to online hardners etc. It is not that cheap. And we chew through fuel like no tomorrow. I always Leroy in a full freighter of fuel every time we have a high sec.

Even at 7B for the large + probably 3-5B for a fit. Cost will not be a factor for us. The XL is out of our range. But then it suppose to be. As are outposts now.

Also towers are going to be around for the better part of a year. At least. You can keep your towers for a while.


That's my point. Outposts and Large POSes are replaced, not Small and Medium POSes.

And for the two above you: deploying a Citadel takes 1 hour and you need a TI Industrial to move it around. Anchoring then onlining a small POS takes 15 minutes, and you can move it in a Blockade Runner.

As a side note: I'm not talking for myself here. My alliance uses Large POSes, and we can afford several Citadels. But I often see temporary Small and Medium POSes in high and lowsec systems, and those guys will be kicked out of the Structure part of the game as CCP planned it.


Kicked out? No.
Playstyle affected? Possibly

Really depends on how temporary your temporary claim is, but I would trade HOURS of POS anchoring, onlining and offlining guns and scooping structures for a 24 hour anchor time on a Citadel and the ability to simply fit things to it like a ship and then offline and scoop it when I'm done.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#373 - 2015-10-29 16:44:06 UTC
Obil Que wrote:


Yes. As I noted Active modules. Much like your ship, modules are not active when they are not being used like firing guns or repairing ships. It's pretty clear that the fuel requirements for Citadels will be a magnitude less than POSes

We don't know what the fuel cost of services are going to be. We just don't know how much fuel it will need. However if it does run of fuel a lot of things still work. Unlike a POS

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#374 - 2015-10-29 17:54:07 UTC
So random ass question/comment.
Does it seem at all (thematically) odd to anyone else that Citadels require service components like Station Factory or Station Reprocessing Center, but don't have those services without the appropriate service module? On the other hand, service modules don't require those components, just materials.

So what, a station has 90% of what it needs to do something, but you have to build the other 10%?
Excuse me while I find the world's largest "Batteries not included" Sign
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#375 - 2015-10-29 18:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Xindi Kraid wrote:
So random ass question/comment.
Does it seem at all (thematically) odd to anyone else that Citadels require service components like Station Factory or Station Reprocessing Center, but don't have those services without the appropriate service module? On the other hand, service modules don't require those components, just materials.

So what, a station has 90% of what it needs to do something, but you have to build the other 10%?
Excuse me while I find the world's largest "Batteries not included" Sign

They're going to rename the components to remove all of those suggestive, completely-unrelated-to-the-structure's-function names.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#376 - 2015-10-29 18:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
First off all a medium is more closely related to a large. By the time you have guns/jams and spares to online hardners etc. It is not that cheap. And we chew through fuel like no tomorrow. I always Leroy in a full freighter of fuel every time we have a high sec.

Even at 7B for the large + probably 3-5B for a fit. Cost will not be a factor for us. The XL is out of our range. But then it suppose to be. As are outposts now.

Also towers are going to be around for the better part of a year. At least. You can keep your towers for a while.


That's my point. Outposts and Large POSes are replaced, not Small and Medium POSes.

And for the two above you: deploying a Citadel takes 1 hour and you need a TI Industrial to move it around. Anchoring then onlining a small POS takes 15 minutes, and you can move it in a Blockade Runner.

As a side note: I'm not talking for myself here. My alliance uses Large POSes, and we can afford several Citadels. But I often see temporary Small and Medium POSes in high and lowsec systems, and those guys will be kicked out of the Structure part of the game as CCP planned it.

This will be at least the 3rd time someone tells you this, probably more I haven't been keeping track, but there will be ADDITIONAL STRUCTURES that are not citadels that will be released before poses go away that will be smaller and do things we use small/medium posses for now.

Perhaps you should read the dev blogs and the FAQ:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mEbMx9xUXje3KH4AppvcjSSoALUVtVEaK6ZZ-zy2Lrs/edit?pli=1#heading=h.57i9vw9hyaaz

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#377 - 2015-10-29 19:43:21 UTC
I've been trying to figure out a reason to use a M Citadel, rather than a L or XL - and, save the minor savings in cost, I don't see much of any reason to ever do so, particularly in low or null space.

Perhaps a M Citadel should have some advantage over the L and XL, at least, in low or null - such as the ability to fit a cloaking device (that would be fun), or simply be immune to directional scan (ie. needs to be found using combat probes)?
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#378 - 2015-10-29 19:45:58 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
I've been trying to figure out a reason to use a M Citadel, rather than a L or XL - and, save the minor savings in cost, I don't see much of any reason to ever do so, particularly in low or null space.

Perhaps a M Citadel should have some advantage over the L and XL, at least, in low or null - such as the ability to fit a cloaking device (that would be fun), or simply be immune to directional scan (ie. needs to be found using combat probes)?

how on earth is "is 8.4b cheaper before rigs/mods" not a huge advantage when you're putting up a personal citadel for ratting or mining or the like
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#379 - 2015-10-29 19:52:47 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
This will be at least the 3rd time someone tells you this, probably more I haven't been keeping track, but there will be ADDITIONAL STRUCTURES that are not citadels that will be released before poses go away that will be smaller and do things we use small/medium posses for now.

Perhaps you should read the dev blogs and the FAQ:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mEbMx9xUXje3KH4AppvcjSSoALUVtVEaK6ZZ-zy2Lrs/edit?pli=1#heading=h.57i9vw9hyaaz


I have read all the devblogs, thanks you. And as I have said several times already (reading the whole thread would be useful, I suggest you do it) nothing is said about those future structures having ship storage or fitting capabilities. According to the devblogs, those capabilities are what Citadels are for (with several improvements and some losses.), except that there's no Citadel fitting the sizes of Small and Medium POSes.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#380 - 2015-10-29 19:59:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
So random ass question/comment.
Does it seem at all (thematically) odd to anyone else that Citadels require service components like Station Factory or Station Reprocessing Center, but don't have those services without the appropriate service module? On the other hand, service modules don't require those components, just materials.

So what, a station has 90% of what it needs to do something, but you have to build the other 10%?
Excuse me while I find the world's largest "Batteries not included" Sign

They're going to rename the components to remove all of those suggestive, completely-unrelated-to-the-structure's-function names.

Only mention of renaming I saw was that they would be called Structure X instead of Station X, but they SHOULD remove the suggestive names.