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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

First post First post
Author
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2015-10-27 00:03:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's because we actually have relevant questions about small details that are easy and possible to answer. Most of the rest of the posting is complaining.

If it makes you feel any better, they didn't answer a few of mine.

Other people also have had relevant questions and do get nowhere near the Dev response time that goons have in this thread.
So.... it's a fair complaint, even if your questions have all been pertinent.


It is likely many things. The ones Querns identified above. The fact that we have a longer history of exploiting or taking advantage of new mechanics than really anyone in the game. We give early, informed , and accurate feedback when we are presented with the option to do so. I also cannot think of a time any of the serious business characters have lied or even mislead in feedback.

Plus, we do run the largest coalition and alliance in the game. That probably helps too.

Nah, it is just because we are pro posters.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Maraner
The Executioners
#142 - 2015-10-27 00:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
Also 700b for the BPO is that right?

If it is so then it will generate the single most expensive killmail in the history of the game when derpy undocks in his rifter with one.

I would drop the cost of the BPO and up the materials and cost of the stations. I noted that the XL size cost around 70b plus another 20-30 in rigs and fittings. Less than a Titan, I'd add 20-30% to that at least. Fuel the minerals market etc as well.

Boy....good time to be a miner.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2015-10-27 00:15:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Timing is also important. Note that we were the first responders in the thread.

You also might look slightly past the "lol goonie" label and take a closer look at the individuals being responded to. Notice any patterns?

It's almost like the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal has some experience in the realms of "interacting sanely with other human beings," "analyzing game features and finding the weak areas," and "having the reputation necessary to lend weight to our words."

Indeed, as individuals nearly every goon is actually a nice person. A few are outright trolls but that is true of every group. My problem with the goons is what happens as a collective once you are all together with regards to manipulating things.

I don't see a problem with people with similar interests and goals banding together for common good.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2015-10-27 00:23:25 UTC
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


Well, something to consider is that the Mediums are basically POSes. They're meant to replace the POS and what people use POSes for. The blog did say they're trying to make it cost about as much as a fully fitted POS...I think...? My guess is that's why.

The Larges are kinda more equivalent to Outposts now, and the XLs super-Outposts. So that's why their costs are more on par with Outposts as we know them today. The Mediums are for wealthy individuals, large Corps, or small Alliances - like POSes today. Larges are for super wealthy individuals, very big Corps, or moderately large Alliances.

.

SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
I like these new Citadels, but one thing kinda bothers me. Why do you have three different sizes? What you are part of a small group and you build a Medium Citadel, but as time goes on your group grows. Now you need a bigger Citadel. OK, but that means either building it someplace new, or having to tear down the Medium to make room. That is kinda lame.

Why can't there just be one Citadel that you can just keep upgrading over? Sure keep the cost investment the same, but there would no longer be the annoyance to move all assets out of the structure just to turn around and replace it with the next level up. Maybe that is part of the plan and I missed it in the blog?


Unless I'm mistaken, in the Eve Vegas Keynote, they said you can have as many of these new Structures in a system as you want.

As with the first guy I quoted - they're changing the paradigm.

Don't think of these as "Outposts". Think of them as "POSes/POCOs/Outposts/Etc." You will want the POCO ones (released later?) on every planet, so at the least you'll have several of those in your systems.

.

Centurax wrote:
Nice work on the Citadels, really cant wait.


I have 2 comments on the information so far:

1. Price for the BPO's as stated are 10 times market value, don't you think this will price out so many people even for the Medium Citadels. How about the following prices:
* 1bil for the Medium
* 10bil for the Large
* 100bil for the XL

2. Also how about making a freighter (repackaged) able to fit in a DST for those who might want to deploy a Large Citadel in a WH? Cant see a good reason as to why we have to build a expensive and practically useless ship in a C1-C4 wormhole to be able to deploy a Large. You would still have to deploy a Medium with a factory (when they are available) or a POS to build the Large tower before transferring it to a ship big enough to launch it, just seems like a pointless step to build a Freighter first, so I offer the suggestion of having the repackaged volume of a freighter small enough to fit in a DST so it can be moved in and out but not give the advantage of being able to haul large amounts of materials in or out.


What if the Large would SQUEEZE into an Orca? Would that help? (If nothing else, Orcas are never entirely useless...)

.

Obil Que wrote:
The structure blog link regarding the hull composition has the Large Citadel structure size at 80km3

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68671/1/Structurecompositioncomponent.png

Unless my EFT is wrong, a max cargo Orca tops out over 100km3 of cargo. That would mean, unless there is a launching restriction to the freighter class, that a Large Citadel could be transported in an Orca which does fit inside lower class wormhole systems.

Is there a launching restriction on L and XL Citadels limited them to Freighters or is it purely a cargo limitation, in which case, the Freighter comment in the devblog was incorrect?


Guess I wasn't the only one wondering this. :)

.

Andre Vauban wrote:
Can you please consider adding a defensive module (or rig) for something like "Overview Inhibitor"? The idea being that the citadel (or structure) will NOT show up on the overview but instead will need to be found by dscan and then probing it down (non-trivial to probe down, maybe even requiring sister's+virtues)? The idea being to give the little guy a chance to hide a medium citadel in unused space. The system "owner" will require real work (probing down each system) to find any unwelcome guests rather than just flying a fast interceptor through space and looking at the overview.

My main concern (in lowsec) is that the more powerful groups will just go after citadels for giggles because they can. If they want to actively hunt me and look for targets, then so be it. However, they should at least put in some effort to find me. Yes, they can still dscan/probe them down, but that takes time and they probably cannot keep looking in EVERY system but rather systems they want to control or systems they suspect people they don't like live.


I'm also kinda wondering about this.

For the Large and XL, I guess it makes sense (considering they're basically the replacement for Outposts, which show up in the Overview), but unless I'm terribly mistaken, POSes don't show up in Overviews until you fly to the moon/grid they're on. So why should the Mediums show up from the time someone jumps into system?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#145 - 2015-10-27 00:33:47 UTC
Rena'Thras wrote:

For the Large and XL, I guess it makes sense (considering they're basically the replacement for Outposts, which show up in the Overview), but unless I'm terribly mistaken, POSes don't show up in Overviews until you fly to the moon/grid they're on. So why should the Mediums show up from the time someone jumps into system?

Because Moons show up on your overview and can be warped to directly.
So they are keeping that part of your gameplay intact, you can't hide a POS currently, it has to be at a moon. So you can't hide a Citadel. It's not 'perfect' mirroring of mechanics, but the alternatives are far worse for gameplay.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#146 - 2015-10-27 01:24:25 UTC
There seems to be some confusion about overview and warping etc

If you have docking rights, the citadel shows up on overview

If you don't

Open scanner window and it should up green, like an anomoly now and you can warp to it, no dscan or probes needed, but you get ZERO intel until you arrive at the citadel, at which point you can scan it, see who is docked, scan its fitting etc, it can also lock and shoot you.

Obviously for high sec any aggression requires a wardec, citadels will have a permanent green gun safety
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2015-10-27 01:39:16 UTC
Exia Lennelluc wrote:
For fuel block production why not add a ice upgrade for null like the ore upgrade that span all 4 racial ice


What about NPC null dwellers? Lowsec dwellers? Even the unwashed hoards of highsec dwellers?


I'm guessing that it would be a coding nightmare to have one blueprint with 5 inputs (1 input with 4 racial isotopes and 4 input with one racial isotope), so having five blueprints to make the fuel blocks that allow for a single isotope is likely the best answer here, if isotope differentiation is kept around because of capital fuels.

I'm glad CCP realizes requiring players to haul in three isotopes just isn't feasable, especially given the emphasis on localization.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
#148 - 2015-10-27 01:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Dain2
Kenneth Feld wrote:
There seems to be some confusion about overview and warping etc

If you have docking rights, the citadel shows up on overview

If you don't

Open scanner window and it should up green, like an anomoly now and you can warp to it, no dscan or probes needed, but you get ZERO intel until you arrive at the citadel, at which point you can scan it, see who is docked, scan its fitting etc, it can also lock and shoot you.

Obviously for high sec any aggression requires a wardec, citadels will have a permanent green gun safety


Thanks for clearing that up.

I like that idea actually. But it would also be nice to maybe have a special probe that sends out a ping and when you get a response you warp there to find no Citadel, so you send another one and warp there, which keeps bringing you closer. (maybe two or three times until you get there). You can do this cloaked to avoid detection and then someone comes in to scan it if you want it.

This will not destroy any current roles that people do and will create a new one. More gameplay.
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
#149 - 2015-10-27 01:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Dain2
Can a Citadel change their fit on the fly with weapons and ammo?


I picture a sub-capital fleet come in on the final round and the persons Citadel is fitted for them and then when the timer starts, in come the Capitals with no way to defend.
Siobhan MacLeary
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2015-10-27 02:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Siobhan MacLeary
Saede Riordan wrote:
Quote:
A Medium structure hull may be deployed from an Industrial, Large and X-Large require a freighter. Yes, we do are aware this make things more complicated to deploy a Large or X-Large structure in low class wormhole space. This is intended.

CCPlease. Give us low-class wormholers so sort of break here. You're essentially saying that we'll need to build an otherwise completely useless freighter which will be trapped in our wormhole solely for the purpose of deploying large citadels. And make no mistake we need large citadels many of us have large numbers of capitals and we'll need places to put them. I get not wanting us to easily put up XLs, (not that it'd be easy anyway with the ISK cost involved), but come on.

None of us are going to leave our capital fleets floating in space outside mediums, we just won't use these structures and we'll keep using towers. You have to give us some realistic option to store our capitals and telling us to build a two billion isk ship that we can't use for anything else is not realistic.

Either make them fit into something other then a freighter, or give us a way to shove freighters through our wormholes. This feels like a slap across the face to low class space.


As long as Larges have a volume equal to or less than 100k m3, it will be possible to deploy them from a max-cargo Orca.

Unfortunately, it looks like we'll have to wait for CCP to tell us exactly how much volume a Large Citadel will take up.

E: Looks like Larges will actually be able to fit quite nicely into an Orca, see http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68671/1/Structurecompositioncomponent.png

Chavez Domingo wrote:
What about SMA*s? Do we get a Corporate Shiphangar or something like that? Many W-Space Corps are sharing their ships with their Corp


I believe the corporate offices will cover this use case.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#151 - 2015-10-27 02:07:27 UTC
My only comment is....given the apparent hurdles to getting enough of these built (70B BPO cost for a large, plus other BPO's for all these components, etc etc)....I would expect that we will not be seeing the end of POS's for at least a year after the Citadel BPO's drop. Mein got in himmel, 70B for a BPO.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2015-10-27 02:13:22 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
My only comment is....given the apparent hurdles to getting enough of these built (70B BPO cost for a large, plus other BPO's for all these components, etc etc)....I would expect that we will not be seeing the end of POS's for at least a year after the Citadel BPO's drop. Mein got in himmel, 70B for a BPO.

Do yourself a favor and don't look at the cost for an XL Citadel BPO.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Siobhan MacLeary
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2015-10-27 02:21:25 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious in dominion.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this, because it has been a strategy employed before with towers to wear out the opponent without ever fighting.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.


Citadels don't require anything except straight damage application to destroy.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Cat Harkness
Twilight Labs
The Serenity Initiative
#154 - 2015-10-27 02:38:33 UTC
Destiny Dain2 wrote:
Can a Citadel change their fit on the fly with weapons and ammo?


I picture a sub-capital fleet come in on the final round and the persons Citadel is fitted for them and then when the timer starts, in come the Capitals with no way to defend.


No. Slots can not be changed while the Citadel is under attack (any time the shields, armor, hull is not 100%).

So not even during the repair cycle.


Cat Harkness

CEO

Twilight Labs

Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#155 - 2015-10-27 02:39:15 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious in dominion.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this, because it has been a strategy employed before with towers to wear out the opponent without ever fighting.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.


Citadels don't require anything except straight damage application to destroy.


Bring all the DPS you want, you are still committed for 30 minutes. For the tiny window of the medium and 20 in a system, it would take dedicated attacks over 3 weeks to clear out. Not counting more being spammed as they will be relatively cheap.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#156 - 2015-10-27 03:35:02 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
So you're entirely removing Small and Medium POSes. Bad move, small corps won't be able to settle as easily as before. And you're putting the BPO price at 6B instead of 500 millions for a Large POS (250 for a Medium, 125 for a Small.)

Nice way to tell part of the players "Get the **** out.", taking what we already have and demanding 6B (plus the prod cost \o/) to get it back.



poses will not die right away, it will take time to phase pout as new stuff comes on. you have at min a year before pos' go away form the time of the first citadel i my guess. plenty of time for small corps to save up money for a medium citadel

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#157 - 2015-10-27 04:03:23 UTC
Sir SmashAlot wrote:

Bring all the DPS you want, you are still committed for 30 minutes. For the tiny window of the medium and 20 in a system, it would take dedicated attacks over 3 weeks to clear out. Not counting more being spammed as they will be relatively cheap.

Except it won't. Because the vulnerability after first reinforce is not going to be a week to the next timer.
CCP have already said they don't want that.
So it will be about 3 days because you can hit multiple at once, since the DPS threshold is so low, you don't need 50 Dreads bashing eash Citadel.
And they aren't that cheap and you are giving your opponent isk by spamming them.

So I really don't see it happening.
Justa Hunni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#158 - 2015-10-27 04:18:24 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:

blow up the old one and use asset safety to automove


Except of course if you are in a wormhole since only nullbears and other empire scum get asset protection.
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#159 - 2015-10-27 05:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelira Cirim
Sizeof Void wrote:
Sometimes, I think you devs underestimate how much ISK already exists in the game

...
You say that like it would require more than a database query? Straight Not sure if passive aggressive.
If I worked at CCP I would install a LED stock ticker showing exactly what the key universe metrics are, every downtime.

Chavez Domingo wrote:
What about SMA*s? Do we get a Corporate Shiphangar or something like that? Many W-Space Corps are sharing their ships with their Corp

It was stated that a corp office comes with "out of the box", and there's no reason to doubt that will include corp hangar divisions.
Try it, you'll like it. :)

At the Vegas Q&A the point was raised about how to get communal ships back when WH players quit the game (with their personal hangars stuffed full). Personally I think the corp voting mechanic has a valid place here. (And who better to use it than a tightly knit WH corp who may suddenly need to relocate?)

I think Nullarbor understands a lot of WH specific tweaks will need to happen since the only recovery options are Null and Void. Blink

Do not actively tank my patience.

Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#160 - 2015-10-27 05:28:48 UTC
If I build a XL with a market hub can I package and sell a titan? Sounds like a nerf to scamming and titan traps.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson