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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#101 - 2015-10-26 19:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Andre Vauban wrote:
Can you please consider adding a defensive module (or rig) for something like "Overview Inhibitor"? The idea being that the citadel (or structure) will NOT show up on the overview but instead will need to be found by dscan and then probing it down (non-trivial to probe down, maybe even requiring sister's+virtues)? The idea being to give the little guy a chance to hide a medium citadel in unused space. The system "owner" will require real work (probing down each system) to find any unwelcome guests rather than just flying a fast interceptor through space and looking at the overview.

My main concern (in lowsec) is that the more powerful groups will just go after citadels for giggles because they can. If they want to actively hunt me and look for targets, then so be it. However, they should at least put in some effort to find me. Yes, they can still dscan/probe them down, but that takes time and they probably cannot keep looking in EVERY system but rather systems they want to control or systems they suspect people they don't like live.


i've always liked the idea of a secret research facility, so something like scientists have too be recruited and obviously it only does research but how would it work?
- only defense is being hidden, so no invulnerability/defenses of any kind
- big bonuses too research more than any citadel etc could achieve.
- relatively cheap as it would be only a small building

so how would it stay hidden?
- has too be probed
- maybe a complex probing game, so when being probed it has decoys and every failure too probe the correct one means ghost sigs spawn up increasing the amount of sigs overall.
- acceleration gates perhaps aswell as added layer of defense/security that would have too be hacked too get through.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#102 - 2015-10-26 19:43:43 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.




What actually will happen: Some explorers get filthy rich, then a goldrush happens when everyone notices what happens with T2-salvage, then the price drops back to sane levels.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#103 - 2015-10-26 19:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious in dominion.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this, because it has been a strategy employed before with towers to wear out the opponent without ever fighting.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.
iSP Boost
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2015-10-26 19:48:27 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.



Citadels don't spawn nodes. You just shoot the structure.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#105 - 2015-10-26 19:49:00 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious in dominion.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.


There are no command nodes for Citadel reinforcement and destruction. That is only for sov.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#106 - 2015-10-26 19:49:39 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.


intriguing, but surely you can still take sov without having too destroy these? , but i think making all citadels have too use fuel should be mandatory.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#107 - 2015-10-26 19:56:04 UTC
I want to know about Alliance Income
There was talk about redoing it so it wasn't all one way. (top down and wanted to move from a bottom up)

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#108 - 2015-10-26 20:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Right, I specified that it was a sov issue. I guess it depends on whether citadels will take the place of node spawning outposts within the system capture rules set once outposts are removed from the game, or if they go in another direction.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#109 - 2015-10-26 20:02:06 UTC
Thank you very much for taking the time to make Structure Rigs require the lower-demand salvage! It was an idea I was hoping for, but didn't actually expect to see on the very first pass for the numbers.

On that note though.
Acronyms used in the following paragraph, for convenience: Core Defense Field Extender = CDFE, Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer = EMSF, Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer = THSF. Most frequently-bought = MFB; this refers to the volume of purchases made by end-users, with the fluff volume created by re-sellers being filtered out.

  • Med CDFE IIs are the MFB T2 rigs in Jita. Med EMSF IIs are the 2nd MFB T2 rigs in Jita.
  • Small CDFE IIs and Small EMSF IIs are the 4th and 6th MFB T2 rigs in Jita. They are the 1st and 2nd MFB small T2 rigs in Jita.
  • Large EMSF IIs, THSF IIs, and CDFE IIs are, respectively, the 2nd, 4th, and 6th MFB large T2 rigs in Jita.
  • The primary component of the aforementioned rigs are Enhanced Ward Consoles and Intact Shield Emitters, respectively.


I had a few more paragraphs written up, but you can easily come up with better solutions than me should you agree that there's a problem.

So, long story short: the fact that T2 Large Structure rigs will be competing for Enhanced Ward Consoles with the most frequently-bought T2 rigs concerns me. With the current material requirements for Enhanced Ward Consoles, and with it being both the most pricey and most volatile raw material on that list, I fear that the increased demand pressure will raise its cost far too high (tripling it in the short-term, perhaps doubling it in the long term), significantly driving down the usage of T2 ship shield rigs.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#110 - 2015-10-26 20:09:36 UTC
In regard to the rigs, having them take lower Relic site materials and throw in some of the trash from Data sites would probably be a huge boon for data sites. With the quantity of Relic salvage in the Structure rigs, the disparity between Relic and Data sites is only going to grow wider, despite the current attempts to improve Data sites.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#111 - 2015-10-26 20:20:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.

Not to mention that if you catch one as it exits the 24 anchoring stage, these things are likely as good as dead. But... can you use the defenses on the citadel immediately after it finishes anchoring?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#112 - 2015-10-26 20:21:19 UTC
Building these citadels is a great moment to increase the lucrativity of data sites by using the relatively unused items [second-hand parts etc] that people end up having a ton of but never being able to do anything major with them apart from using the odd one to build a cosmos module. Using them to build citadel parts should be kept in mind along with any other relatively unused construction items.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#113 - 2015-10-26 20:31:05 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
In regard to the rigs, having them take lower Relic site materials and throw in some of the trash from Data sites would probably be a huge boon for data sites. With the quantity of Relic salvage in the Structure rigs, the disparity between Relic and Data sites is only going to grow wider, despite the current attempts to improve Data sites.


surely data sites should be all about tech stuff, bp's that kind of stuff rather than salvage

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#114 - 2015-10-26 20:32:17 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.


For everything except Enhanced Ward Consoles (and arguably Intact Shield Emitters), there is more than enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build thousands of these. This would not even affect the price of most rigs, would raise the price of almost all the rest by less than ~0.25mil, and would raise the price of shield rigs by ~85% in the short-term and ~40% in the long-term.

Harvey James wrote:
thats my biggest concern here as rigs are usually a fair chunk of a fully fitted ship as it is, surely there are enough worthless salvage components that could be used as the bulk for the new rigs instead.


You're absolutely right: there's lots of worthless salvage components like that! Good thing that (with the exception of Enhanced Ward Consoles and arguably Intact Shield Emitters) the new rigs use exactly those worthless components, rather than the higher-demand ones.

Owen Levanth wrote:
What actually will happen: Some explorers get filthy rich, then a goldrush happens when everyone notices what happens with T2-salvage, then the price drops back to sane levels.


This. Most of the salvage materials in those spreadsheets is currently not even looted by explorers; it's left to de-spawn in space. An exception, however, is Enhanced Ward Consoles, which are currently one of the main attractions of exploring non-Sansha space, and are already being exploited almost to their limit. Hard to have a gold-rush when there's no new gold to lay claim to.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#115 - 2015-10-26 20:32:53 UTC
The XL artwork is seriously cool..... that Avatar looks positively puny in comparison Shocked

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#116 - 2015-10-26 20:39:08 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
In regard to the rigs, having them take lower Relic site materials and throw in some of the trash from Data sites would probably be a huge boon for data sites. With the quantity of Relic salvage in the Structure rigs, the disparity between Relic and Data sites is only going to grow wider, despite the current attempts to improve Data sites.


surely data sites should be all about tech stuff, bp's that kind of stuff rather than salvage

I'm not saying to put Relic salvage into Data sites, but to have the Structure rigs use materials from Data sites along with the lower-end salvage materials.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#117 - 2015-10-26 20:45:20 UTC
ISK as a material used to build citadels? Going on the vein of CCP wanting everything to be destructible which will soon include skillpoints the fact that isk is basically indestructible and just gets transferred from either individuals, corporations, alliances and npc and ccp owned corps and alliances is something that will probably need to be addressed eventually.

I would say 500 million for a medium, 2 billion for a large and 10 billion for an extra large will help to fight inflation. Maybe even turn isk into aurum tokens via blueprints and use them instead.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#118 - 2015-10-26 20:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Terranid Meester wrote:
ISK as a material used to build citadels? Going on the vein of CCP wanting everything to be destructible which will soon include skillpoints the fact that isk is basically indestructible and just gets transferred from either individuals, corporations, alliances and npc and ccp owned corps and alliances is something that will probably need to be addressed eventually.

I would say 500 million for a medium, 2 billion for a large and 10 billion for an extra large will help to fight inflation. Maybe even turn isk into aurum tokens via blueprints and use them instead.


ISK is already used as a material for the manufacturing of all items in Eve. That's why we've been having a nothing but deflation since Crius came out.
Ice Cold Beer
To The Stars
#119 - 2015-10-26 21:15:12 UTC
I see the CSM has been busy. More nul sec crap of no interest to empire dwellers. My mates and I have around 30 accounts mothballed and mothballed they will remain.

Eve will die slowly one nul sec expansion at time.

CSM, hang your heads in shame.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#120 - 2015-10-26 21:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Soleil Fournier wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Aryth wrote:
These seem awfully cheap at the medium level given their really small vulnerability window. Is there a concern we end up with a very spammable and essentially throwaway level of citadels?


They are destructible, so the smaller sizes should be relatively spammable. Also remember 600m ISK it the base hull price.


And you thought the sov grind was hellacious in dominion.

Think about 20 medium citadels in a system you need to clear out. Each having a different vulnerability timer set for maximum trolling. That means 20 initial reinforcement fights, 20 command node huntings, 20 second reinforcement fights, another 20 command node hunting parties....the implications on the grind here are pretty scarry. Maybe not for highsec, but sov definately will suffer from this type of issue. Then think about the next 5 systems next to it that have the same setup, and that they won't ever go offline because the hulls don't take fuel. There are rich players/alliances out there that will do this, because it has been a strategy employed before with towers to wear out the opponent without ever fighting.

A hard cap doesn't make sense. But I think the above scenerio should at least be discussed before the sov grind gets sent into overdrive.

You mean the above scenario where you made about 6 billion killing those structures off just the hulls, + any module drops on them, for maybe an extra billion. And they might not go offline, but they only defend themselves with a pilot actively doing so, otherwise they are pure targets in space.
And if they had assets in those citadels (which they must to make them relevant) then they also have to pay the cost of recovering those assets.

So yea...... I don't think that scenario is very scary.

And for Wormhole space....
The question you want to be asking is this.

"CCP, Can I tether a Capital to a M Citadel even though it can't dock"

If the answer is yes, and Tethered ships can use station services like repair and refitting, you get 99% of the current ability of a large POS, as well as a bunch of abilities the large POS doesn't have.