These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#201 - 2015-10-25 17:28:13 UTC
"We're considering adding a weapons timer to triage & siege modes...but we'd like your feedback on that."

Big fat no to that from me. Why? Because FAX machines will be the new combat triage and for them to have any chance of surriving on a battlefield instead of just being expensive throwaways they need the ability to refit. 30 Seconds being locked out from refitting due to weapon timer from repairing your fleet is planty enough. To refit you'll have to stop repping for 30 sec and be able to surrive 30sec in your current fit. (If what was said about weapons timer being reduced to 30sec is true).

But if you give siege and triage weapon timers we are talking 5:30 minutes or 6 minutes depending on what the weapons timer will end up being. That removes any concideration towards FAX machines and will lead to us just bringing 50 subcap logis to do the job. If they have no means to surrive they wont have a place.


Another issue I'd like ask about if armor supercapitals and capitals will get a slot layout revamp. Because with the change of refitting shield capitals and supercapitals have such an advantage that its not even worth the concideration to enage a shield capital / supercapital force with armor capitals and supercapitals unless you have at least twice the numbers. Dunno but the ability to fit for maxium tank and maxium tank seems out of balance once that change is though.
Oskolda Eriker
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2015-10-25 17:30:14 UTC
Garrett Howe wrote:
Oskolda Eriker wrote:
Garrett Howe wrote:

That's what siege mode is for. If you want high subcap damage without siege, use a battleship.

you can answer the question? 9xlarge cannond doing less than destroer dps.

Yes, what's hard to understand about that?

tracking largesize cannon have more dps that most dps midsize cannon
i shot many times from dreads without siege.
in my opinion tracking cannon would have ~1/2 dps of dreadnout
for example moros have 15k dps from blasters
tracking would have about 7-8k
Oskolda Eriker
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2015-10-25 17:31:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Oskolda Eriker wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:


capitals were never meant to be able to do pve

capitals escalation?
isnt it?


capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.

Agreed -- it's time for CCP to admit their failure of design and remove all loot from capital-escalation-spawned rats.

https://beta.eve-kill.net/character/1543191737/
WH expert lool
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#204 - 2015-10-25 17:34:35 UTC
Baki Yuku wrote:
"We're considering adding a weapons timer to triage & siege modes...but we'd like your feedback on that."

Big fat no to that from me. Why? Because FAX machines will be the new combat triage and for them to have any chance of surriving on a battlefield instead of just being expensive throwaways they need the ability to refit. 30 Seconds being locked out from refitting due to weapon timer from repairing your fleet is planty enough. To refit you'll have to stop repping for 30 sec and be able to surrive 30sec in your current fit. (If what was said about weapons timer being reduced to 30sec is true).

We can fix this counter-intuitive mechanic by making siege/triage apply a 5 minute weapons timer (or one equal to whatever siege/triage length is.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Alex Lenin
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#205 - 2015-10-25 17:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Lenin
2devs
What about skill for new capital modules (shield extender\armor plates etc)?
It will be require standard skill such as Shield Upgrades\Hull Upgrades or you make new capital "size" skill with x10 multiplier?
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#206 - 2015-10-25 17:41:50 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
loquacious7 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Carriers can take gates now.

I said I wanted to use the carrier and ships not watch them burn ;)

Do they not have scouts and webs where you live?

My old "suitcase" carrier did not need them. Was part of my point. Maybe I should gank miners and freighters in high sec to prove my point :)

Wait you point is that you can't travel around from one end of new eden to the other risk free?

If so then working as intended.

Never said that. For you to read that into what was said is daft. But thanks for whatever that attempt at logic was. I'm sure you will become better once you try it a few times.
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
#207 - 2015-10-25 17:42:59 UTC
These new dread HAW guns are a joke, sorry but 1-2k DPS is laughable. Even if the T2 are 3K, its still funny.

Why on earth would I pay 3.5K for a dread hull, another 500M (poor) or 1B (proper) to fit it, to achieve the same fire power as 1 Vindi (2.4b) or 2 Machs (1.5B each). Oh and both of those BSs have mobility, utility and the ability to receive remote assistance.

The trade off seems less than desirable with the current proposal.

I feel that Siege and Triage for that matter both need to have their cycle times evaluated. You are giving Caps, capital level MWDs which means cap fleets are going to be much more mobile than they are now. So in a fleet battle carriers/supers/titans are going to be constantly moving, and Dread/FAX are going to be locked down.

This is horrible, basically you are providing Titans with easy targets for the new point and shoot DDs while making the backbone of the fleets DPS and Logi absolutely vulnerable.

If this is the case, then while removing EWar immunity, they need to be allowed remote assistance. Else they are just Titan fodder and 10-15 malus will make a FAX unable to ever save anyone.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2015-10-25 17:44:07 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.


Just out of curiosity: where does that myth actually come from?
I mean, it's obviously wrong because the Sleepless Guardians wouldn't drop loot if they were just there to prevent you from warping in caps, so why do people keep saying that?
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2015-10-25 17:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: loquacious7
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
I am concerned about the carriers, this is basically removing them from any PvE roles many carrier pilots use them for. Carriers are a significant source of income for many pilots. Many of whom use carriers for ratting so they can then afford to go out and PvP.

This seems to be a massive nerf in this area. Removing a carriers ability to field any of the basic drones and only able to use fighters, drastically hampers then in anoms where frigates take forever to target and nearly as long to kill. Using fighters in anoms is something that most carrier pilots hate, much less with them being more like ammo now rather than something that could be repaired if damaged.

new carrier fighters don't need target locks

read the blog before weeping over your lost ratting carriers

You do not use fighters to rat, read the entire statement before flaming someone for commenting.
Oskolda Eriker
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2015-10-25 17:47:26 UTC
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
These new dread HAW guns are a joke, sorry but 1-2k DPS is laughable. Even if the T2 are 3K, its still funny.

Why on earth would I pay 3.5K for a dread hull, another 500M (poor) or 1B (proper) to fit it, to achieve the same fire power as 1 Vindi (2.4b) or 2 Machs (1.5B each). Oh and both of those BSs have mobility, utility and the ability to receive remote assistance.
.

4-5 thats cheap fit) my one costs about 7-6 ***
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#211 - 2015-10-25 17:48:56 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.


Just out of curiosity: where does that myth actually come from?
I mean, it's obviously wrong because the Sleepless Guardians wouldn't drop loot if they were just there to prevent you from warping in caps, so why do people keep saying that?


idk, it's just what I remember hearing back in the day. maybe it's wrong. equally it wouldn't make sense for ccp to add a special extra money thing for people who like using overpowered ships.

but it's not like wormholes are short on broken game mechanics.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#212 - 2015-10-25 17:49:29 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.


Just out of curiosity: where does that myth actually come from?
I mean, it's obviously wrong because the Sleepless Guardians wouldn't drop loot if they were just there to prevent you from warping in caps, so why do people keep saying that?

Because they don't like something that makes more isk than incursions. At least that is the best I can come up with.

But to be fair the isk you can pump out of them is kinda crazy. 600M per site in blue loot alone.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2015-10-25 17:50:04 UTC
Reading dev post brings up a UI space allocation concern as we approach an overload of information and deployment windows.
These need to be small enough that people don't HAVE to use multiple screens just to play EVE.

Also the tactical overlay bubble 'use of range visibility' is Already crippling the visual field with it's whiteness. This gets worse the more there is on grid. You get enough interdiction bubbles going on top of this and all you can see is an abstract painting of black and white. The Relic/Data site UI is another example of being bigger than needed obscuring views.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2015-10-25 17:50:14 UTC
loquacious7 wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
I am concerned about the carriers, this is basically removing them from any PvE roles many carrier pilots use them for. Carriers are a significant source of income for many pilots. Many of whom use carriers for ratting so they can then afford to go out and PvP.

This seems to be a massive nerf in this area. Removing a carriers ability to field any of the basic drones and only able to use fighters, drastically hampers then in anoms where frigates take forever to target and nearly as long to kill. Using fighters in anoms is something that most carrier pilots hate, much less with them being more like ammo now rather than something that could be repaired if damaged.

new carrier fighters don't need target locks

read the blog before weeping over your lost ratting carriers

You do not use fighters to rat, read the entire statement before flaming someone for commenting.

He was referring to your bit about frigate targeting times.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#215 - 2015-10-25 17:51:46 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.


Just out of curiosity: where does that myth actually come from?
I mean, it's obviously wrong because the Sleepless Guardians wouldn't drop loot if they were just there to prevent you from warping in caps, so why do people keep saying that?

Effort savings, most likely. It's a lot easier to re-use an existing NPC than to design a new one with a separate loot table. They probably didn't expect players to be able to survive six to eight Sleepless Guardians at once.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#216 - 2015-10-25 17:55:46 UTC
Querns wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
"We're considering adding a weapons timer to triage & siege modes...but we'd like your feedback on that."

Big fat no to that from me. Why? Because FAX machines will be the new combat triage and for them to have any chance of surriving on a battlefield instead of just being expensive throwaways they need the ability to refit. 30 Seconds being locked out from refitting due to weapon timer from repairing your fleet is planty enough. To refit you'll have to stop repping for 30 sec and be able to surrive 30sec in your current fit. (If what was said about weapons timer being reduced to 30sec is true).

We can fix this counter-intuitive mechanic by making siege/triage apply a 5 minute weapons timer (or one equal to whatever siege/triage length is.)


So having a brain knowing what to do, how to do it and when to do it. Is now counter-intuitive wow eve really is becoming WoW.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2015-10-25 17:56:47 UTC
Querns wrote:
Effort savings, most likely. It's a lot easier to re-use an existing NPC than to design a new one with a separate loot table.

Uhm... that's exactly what they did. The only place you can find them is when doing cap escalations. They don't appear in any other site.
Nuhrp
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2015-10-25 17:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nuhrp
Requests from W/H perspective.

It seems like the changes you created for the dread create a battlefield that is more in-line with what you imagined. However, these do not apply very well in w/h ratting. The risks in w/h's atm are well balanced with the rewards. Any mistake in attention, fitting, lag, etc... results in the loss of several billion. Also, the isk making is high per hour but limited to the anoms a system has - thus allowing people time to go kill in K space. Please consider the following:

1 - W/h effects to be considered specifically for capital guns damage and tracking just like you do on wolf-rayat for small guns. This also forces attackers to commit their own dreads to a field in a w/h.

2 - The DPS suggested in K space for a sieged dread against a sub-capital is too low. It needs to be proportional to the value of the ship.

3 - The tank suggested in K space is not known due to the added mods. It needs to be proportional to the value of the ship. Specially for Titans.

4 - Consider that perhaps the reason it is difficult to balance all this is because you are missing a line of ships. Carriers - Super carriers but dread - not Super Dread. No the Titan is not it; something in the 20B range.

5 - Disagree with the statement that ref-fitting under fire is bad for the game because it makes it hard for the designer to balance. Everyone that flies capitals says it enhances gameplay, requires skill, brings more mods into the field, and can be countered by the enemy changing as well. So what if life is harder for the developer to balance? Get a helmet, life is not easy.

6 - Keep the time balance of w/h people the same. So that they have time to come out and play with the nice people. If you balance it equally to null, then they will have to rat and completely live in there all the time. Maintain the risks high and rewards high with a lower time bound to allow for null content.

Rest in my opinion is good.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#219 - 2015-10-25 17:57:20 UTC
Querns wrote:
Jack Hayson wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
capital escalations were CCP's attempt at preventing people from using capitals. it didn't really work out.


Just out of curiosity: where does that myth actually come from?
I mean, it's obviously wrong because the Sleepless Guardians wouldn't drop loot if they were just there to prevent you from warping in caps, so why do people keep saying that?

Effort savings, most likely. It's a lot easier to re-use an existing NPC than to design a new one with a separate loot table. They probably didn't expect players to be able to survive six to eight Sleepless Guardians at once.

A standard carrier or dread fit is out of the box able to more or less, if we ignore the neuts.

When things have gone a bit sideways (refitted), our hero dreads have been cap stable perma reapping. Its not that much damage. It is the neuts that get you. And all cap pilots know that cap is life.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
#220 - 2015-10-25 17:57:59 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
I am concerned about the carriers, this is basically removing them from any PvE roles many carrier pilots use them for. Carriers are a significant source of income for many pilots. Many of whom use carriers for ratting so they can then afford to go out and PvP.

This seems to be a massive nerf in this area. Removing a carriers ability to field any of the basic drones and only able to use fighters, drastically hampers then in anoms where frigates take forever to target and nearly as long to kill. Using fighters in anoms is something that most carrier pilots hate, much less with them being more like ammo now rather than something that could be repaired if damaged.

So is CCP willing to either allow squadrons to auto aggress NPCs or will CCP be adding anoms which are more in line with capital class ships. I would honestly love to see both happen, but at least one of these options need to be allowed for capital pilots. Capital level anoms btw would be a really nice feature, as they would give dread, super and Titan pilots, something to do when not on the once in a blue moon fleets they are actually usable for.

While I understand the changes, and am not opposed to them, it does leave a hole in a major area of the game.


capitals were never meant to be able to do pve


And yet they do, anoms are not gated to easily prevent this. Cap escolations in WHs don't hinder this, they actually enhance it.

At the end of the day, what good are capitals for most pilots? We can't move them to get decent fights cause of fatigue and reduced jump ranges. We can't slow boat across the galaxy, as they are slow as hell. So maybe once or twice a month there is a use for caps in PvP, what makes that worth the investment?

Having a use for Caps in PvE, gives them a daily usefulness. This in turn creates a desire for more to be used and thus more to be found and killed. It is a win for all aspects of the game, so saying they aren't meant for PvE, seems to have no real standing, either historically or practically.