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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Alexis Nightwish
#81 - 2015-10-16 19:57:13 UTC
Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place.

Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints

Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints

Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints


The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy!

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#82 - 2015-10-16 20:02:03 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place.

Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints

Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints

Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints


The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy!


i would rather see normal 5 drones on them with the gal bonus being slightly better than the normal 10% drone damage/HP so that hammerheads would still be strong but not as OP as they are now on them, but the -1 slot is mandatory for all droneboats and why its took them this long too realize gurista ships should follow this aswell is bizzare and the rattle should certainly follow this aswell, but i would agree with the thought of -1 high and launcher over -1 low slot

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#83 - 2015-10-16 20:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place.

Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints

Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints

Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints


The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy!


Remember it does only have two drones, and previously was able to launch full flights of sentries or heavy drones.

Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-10-16 20:10:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address.
The incoming missile disruption modules are going to take care of this.

I would like to make sure the Gila is still able to run C3 wormhole PVE sites with passive shield recharge tank. Giving it a bit of a passive recharge shield boost to compensate from losing a Shield Power Relay lowslot would be one way to do it.

Other way would be to leave the lowslot, and slightly reduce the drone damage role bonus. But it sounds like the slot layout is part of the problem here.
Matt Faithbringer
YOLO so no taxes please
#85 - 2015-10-16 20:10:28 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
6 cloaky protopedes


FTFY
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#86 - 2015-10-16 20:11:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
[i]Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor.


The prophecy and armageddon were changed into drone boats with unbonused but flexible hardpoints. Currently there is no [combat] cruiser or frigate for the noobs to train before they go into those boats.

A side effect of this punisher change removes the last utility high in the amarr frigate lineup as well, with the exception of the executioner.

My suggestion for the punisher is to turn it into a mini prophecy/geddon. Doesn't need to be a full compliment of drones or even have a drone damage bonus.

3H/3M/4L with 2 turret and 2 launcher hardpoints or 3/3 depending on drone bandwidth


resistance bonus
drone tracking/hp?

20m3 bandwidth and decent dronebay

It's something that's missing from the amarr lineup.

gallente = tristan/algos/vexor/myrm/domi

amarr = dragoon/proph/geddon

I suppose one could argue and include the ewar ships, but that's more like.......
crucifier/arbitrator/curse/pilgrim

With this change and a similar change to the maller, the amarr drone boat progression could be........

punisher/dragoon/maller/proph/geddon
Arla Sarain
#87 - 2015-10-16 20:15:38 UTC
3 ACs are bad.

Instead you focus on artillery fits :D

FYI Arty rifters are a thing and are pretty fine.

AC Slashers do not live without TDs. AC Rifters are outdone by Null loaded neutron atrons, or anything that fits rails or lasers.

Overall, pretty underwhelming. Slasher remain a predictable hard counter, and Rifters remain irrelevant. Could atleast give it some speed to reinforce its strength and relieve pressure from plate fits.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#88 - 2015-10-16 20:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Ransu Asanari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address.
The incoming missile disruption modules are going to take care of this.

I would like to make sure the Gila is still able to run C3 wormhole PVE sites with passive shield recharge tank. Giving it a bit of a passive recharge shield boost to compensate from losing a Shield Power Relay lowslot would be one way to do it.

Other way would be to leave the lowslot, and slightly reduce the drone damage role bonus. But it sounds like the slot layout is part of the problem here.


I am trying to offer a suggestion, that satisfies the need to reduce the applied damage from a Gila coupled with a strong tank.
I think that CCP are uncomfortable with a strong drone biased ship having too many slots.

This leads us to either remove a high slot or a low, mids would be quite extreme to remove on this ship.

Removing either a high or a low will reduce available DPS. And should resolve the issue.

However while removing a high is a complete solution, as you point out, removing a low will require repeated balance passes to bring the Gila back into a healthy state, viable for both PVE and PVP.

I hope Gila users both PVE and PVP will agree, and CCP too.
We all knew this day would come, and I am sure most are willing to accept that we will lose some damage capability.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mr Spaxi
#89 - 2015-10-16 20:21:36 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




    • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.


    Not every ship is designed to be used solo, and Punisher is not a solo frigate unless you fit it in a very gimped way. However, -1mid ships (like the Punisher) have a very strong use elsewhere, and this change of slots is going to help it.

    However, I agree that keeping the damage bonus, -1 high, +1 low is the way to go.
    Dzhiku Aslan
    MamenkinbI CbInki
    #90 - 2015-10-16 20:23:43 UTC
    change caracal navy issue too pls. It worse than t1 variant/Cry
    twit brent
    Never Not AFK
    #91 - 2015-10-16 20:27:08 UTC
    So disheartened by sacrilege. I thought it was going to finally get its slot layout fixed :(
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #92 - 2015-10-16 20:38:34 UTC
    Thank you for the Worm, Gila and Orthrus nerfs as well as the cool explanations in italics of your thinking regarding each ship. Very good!

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
    Torei Dutalis
    IceBox Inc.
    Rogue Caldari Union
    #93 - 2015-10-16 20:39:21 UTC
    With this proposed change the punisher will have more powergrid than the confessor, just putting that out there.
    Merrowing Kion
    SoT
    DarkSide.
    #94 - 2015-10-16 20:39:41 UTC
    You forget about Munin. After boost of Hurricane Navy, Munin looked like poor relative behinde it.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #95 - 2015-10-16 20:40:29 UTC
    Quote:
    Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs


    so we talking boxers or briefs?

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Flyinghotpocket
    Small Focused Memes
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #96 - 2015-10-16 20:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
    So your just gonna go away from the entire amarr are the capacitor warfare race utility highs lots of capacitor and just say F it, t1 amarrian frigates dont need utility highs F it. lets give all the utility highs to the race that doesnt need them. the gallente AND the minmatar.

    When the hell does more drones on the sac equal 'khanid trends.' Khanids niche is MISSILES not drones. fix the damn sac! its supposed to excell with hams, and you still haven't FIXED HAMS since they were released and EVEN your own people admitted to a TYPO on the data sheets.

    and like sten pointed out below me. this is the return of the old autocannon punisher. thx for destroying one of the actual best frigates for brawling armor pvp in the game.

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
    sten mattson
    Red Sky Morning
    The Amarr Militia.
    #97 - 2015-10-16 20:44:35 UTC
    Quote:
    Punisher:

    Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

    +1 Turret

    +1 Lowslot

    +10 PWG

    +13 CPU

    Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level


    I am not sure how i feel about that, removing utility high but paving the way for either more tank or an extra tracking computer. But now you go back to the old punisher where you would do more damage with other types of guns than lazors. This may be the return of the autocannon punisher maybe? This definetly is a straight buff to hte support rep/neuting/bait punisher.

    Come to think of it, this is straight up loss of utility. you loose the utility high and you gain a lowslot. But to be completely honest, there is no such thing as a utility low. Look at the retribution, it has the same slots now except it has better bonuses (tracking!!!) and a utility high slot, but you dont see those flying around every day either now, do you? What the punisher needed was not damage (although it does always help), it was application/utility and you dont get that with additional lowslots, no matter how many you put in there.

    This change just switched the current punisher into a faster, squishier, less dangerous retribution. What the punisher absolutely needs is a third midslot, but it needs to keep the utility high! A more sensible thing would have been to give it the harb treatment: remove a turret and buff the damage bonus accordingly, and then move a highslot to a mid (or keep the 2 highslots since dual neuts could be interesting)

    Quote:
    Tormentor:

    Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones.

    +10m3 Dronebay


    this is a good change considering i can never decide what kind of drones to take with me on a roam, damage or ecm? :P
    On the other hand, how can it be overlooked? The tormentor is the single most used amarr t1 frigate out there

    IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
    Leonardo Adami
    Doomheim
    #98 - 2015-10-16 20:46:50 UTC
    Alexis Nightwish wrote:
    Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place.

    Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints

    Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints

    Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints


    The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy!


    Maybe, I think it's to much how about 400% and go from there?
    Leonardo Adami
    Doomheim
    #99 - 2015-10-16 20:49:07 UTC
    sten mattson wrote:
    Quote:
    Punisher:

    Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

    +1 Turret

    +1 Lowslot

    +10 PWG

    +13 CPU

    Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level


    I am not sure how i feel about that, removing utility high but paving the way for either more tank or an extra tracking computer. But now you go back to the old punisher where you would do more damage with other types of guns than lazors. This may be the return of the autocannon punisher maybe? This definetly is a straight buff to hte support rep/neuting/bait punisher.

    Come to think of it, this is straight up loss of utility. you loose the utility high and you gain a lowslot. But to be completely honest, there is no such thing as a utility low. Look at the retribution, it has the same slots now except it has better bonuses (tracking!!!) and a utility high slot, but you dont see those flying around every day either now, do you? What the punisher needed was not damage (although it does always help), it was application/utility and you dont get that with additional lowslots, no matter how many you put in there.

    This change just switched the current punisher into a faster, squishier, less dangerous retribution. What the punisher absolutely needs is a third midslot, but it needs to keep the utility high! A more sensible thing would have been to give it the harb treatment: remove a turret and buff the damage bonus accordingly, and then move a highslot to a mid (or keep the 2 highslots since dual neuts could be interesting)

    Quote:
    Tormentor:

    Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones.

    +10m3 Dronebay


    this is a good change considering i can never decide what kind of drones to take with me on a roam, damage or ecm? :P
    On the other hand, how can it be overlooked? The tormentor is the single most used amarr t1 frigate out there


    Tormentors is perfectly fine Fozzie, I don't think it needed any tweaks tbh.
    Templar Dane
    Amarrian Vengeance
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #100 - 2015-10-16 20:50:22 UTC
    Mr Spaxi wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




    • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.


    Not every ship is designed to be used solo, and Punisher is not a solo frigate unless you fit it in a very gimped way. However, -1mid ships (like the Punisher) have a very strong use elsewhere, and this change of slots is going to help it.

    However, I agree that keeping the damage bonus, -1 high, +1 low is the way to go.


    Midslots are king in frigate combat. A midslot gimped ship should excel at something, and the punisher doesn't. All it's got is tank, and in this game that IS NOT A ROLE. In a frigate fleet all that tank does for the punisher is make sure it's a low priority target. The enemy isn't going to shoot at punishers first, they're going to go for logi/dps/ewar before they shoot at the brick.

    A brick that can't bring a web, or ewar. Inflexible tank, can't shield tank like a lot of other ships because of a lack of mids and a then-useless bonus. Can't active tank.

    If it's going to be a one-trick pony, at least give it a good trick.