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new scanning user interface testing on sisi

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Darkblad
Doomheim
#101 - 2015-10-09 07:13:54 UTC
RZN wrote:
P.S.
Unrelated but has been bugging me for a while. Is there any chance of you guys getting all these awesome threads linked in one place for those of us that do not reddit? I would think the update site would be the best place but i couldn't even find a link to the beta launcher on it .
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Tilk Hendar
Mark Of The Wolves
#102 - 2015-10-09 08:16:30 UTC
Hi,

I'm not sure it is the good place but i put it here.

Can you add a smaller but cool information is the number of combat anomalies and the number of cosmic signature and maybe number of ore anomalies cause each time we jump in a new wh we have to count line by line and it is so boring...


Thanks and sorry if it is not in good topic :).

Fly Unsafe.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#103 - 2015-10-09 10:03:37 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
This will be my initial impressions of the new scanning interface because I literally did not understand how to access it during the first round of testing. (Oh ctrl-click THAT button. You mean people use that button?)

Although it's not the first thing I did, d-scan: Ummmmm.... I'm not sure you understand how we use dscan on the solar system map. We're not looking just to dscan celestials, we have to dscan completely arbitrary space away from celestials. Free dscan control is completely necessary for combat scanners, not just a radial menu option on celestials.

So, the very first thing I did was launch probes in a saved formation then open the map and.... where's my handle for the probes? This hasn't happened every time, but sometimes the handle's just absent. I'd bug report this but I'm having trouble reproducing it, it happened again at random but I can't do it on demand. It does however remind me of a feature request: please let us move probe handles for the next scan while doing the current scan.

Could you swap alt and ctrl? I don't think this is just consistency for users of the old system, alt is normally used for translation while ctrl is more normally used for resizing in other applications, so as well as being an unnecessary change I think it's generally confusing this way round. Also I feel like there's no need to grab such small handles for size steps when you have to hold a modifier (currently alt, hopefully ctrl) to perform the action. Why does it need to be fiddly if it's already unambiguous? For that matter, why does it need to be mouse based at all for size steps? It's not an analogue operation, if we have to use a modifier why not go the whole way and make it a keyboard shortcut for step up and step down? The handle size complaint is also applicable to controlling the spacing of the formation (currently ctrl, hopefully back to alt) to a lesser degree.

EDIT: Just noticed that those shortcuts are already in development. The complaint about the handle size still stands.

I'm not sure what the point of scan result strengths on fixed celestials is meant to be, it's clutter. On a related note, hiding brackets when another bracket comes in front feels very distracting when moving the camera (which incidentally feels sluggish for a reason I can't put my finger on, maybe just a low frame rate.)

This is probably something it's possible to get used to but the narrow scan strength bars under the results initially are processed as being BETWEEN results, making them ambiguous. I'm not sure what's wrong with the old system for this, which is unambiguous and intuitive.

Destroy probes feels poorly placed but there's a confirmation dialog so I'm not sure it's actually an issue.

On the bright side I like the new system for custom formation launching, one click for any formation is a vast improvement. This is something that has irked me for a long time about the current implementation but I didn't complain about because I wasn't sure how it could be done better, and I just lived with sometimes using the wrong formation because I misremembered which I used last. The list on hover is perfect.

The filter system... hmm. I like the concept but it has practicality issues. For casual use the predefined 5 sets with keyboard shorts are nice but when you use the keyboard shortcuts you can't see what you have selected. Since there are only 5 predefined sets, please add a row of icons in the header which you can grey out, there is plenty of room. Selecting a specific user filter requires toggling everything currently selected to off then selecting that filter, very slow, too much clicking, we need a fast way to deselect everything as a minimum. User defined shortcuts for filtering states would be nice.


Thanks for the post, lots of stuff in there. On the D-scan point, I thought I had explained clearly enough that D-scan is currently *not functional* in this iteration. It's not that we've changed how it's going to work, it's that in adding something to it we broke the other part :) It'll get fixed. The celestial direction radial menu option is a QoL bump, not a crazy new paradigm.

Setting up a new scan while performing one is out of the scope for our team, sorry. Handle size seems to be a hot button issue for a lot of people but no consensus comes from the discussion - some think it's egregiously large, some think it's too small. "hiding brackets when another bracket comes in front feels very distracting when moving the camera" - could you show me a picture or video of what you mean? I might just be uncaffeinated at the moment, but I'm having major problems trying to visualise that. Destroy probes got moved as a direct response to a lot of feedback, so it's probably going to stay there.

Using the keyboard shortcuts would be considered an advanced move, at which point we would assume you know what you're doing. I think the last thing the window needs is more information to care about all the time. The latter point on the user created filter is really nice though, will bring that up. Sounds like a defect actually.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#104 - 2015-10-09 10:07:01 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i just tested the latest version and was very impressed, amazing work.

here a few things which could be improved/or things i did not like
- the new dscan window looks cool but you swapped angle with range and the descan button moved from right to left, please don't do that :P
- the dscan visualization in the map is awesome but the fade-in makes it difficult to see where it is actually coming from ( http://i.imgur.com/3oTCYT6.png ) if you remove the fade in it would be easier to read


regarding the probes and the cube for interacting with them
- the color coding is great and the trick where you block cube movement if the angle is to steep is also awesome. I actually wanted to write that down as a suggestion but after testing it i saw you already implemented it - great job

selecting things on the map while scanning
- using the cube can be a bit annoying if many objects are close to it ( http://i.imgur.com/7DfvmuI.png ), have you tried to make it so that the cube would cover everything behind it and it would be impossible to select it while it is above it while zoomed out? To select something all a player would have to do is to zoom in
or: give us a modifier key which when held down would only let us interact with the cube, not with the rest of the map.


Yeah the fade might be a little high at the start - will definitely bring this up with Colgate. The layering of the cube is something that quite a lot of people have mentioned - I'll also bring it up with Colgate and see if we can make some improvements here.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#105 - 2015-10-09 10:07:47 UTC
Johnny Splunk wrote:
It's mentioned that these latest changes will be ready around 10/9. When will they be on SISI?


That was only the last short list of changes, and it's been on Sisi since I made the post :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#106 - 2015-10-09 10:10:29 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
Great work ccp. The latest changes are much much better.

- I like how the probe and sig strength information is now back in one window instead of duplicated across two windows.
- the arrows and other indicators showing probe distance and movement are much appreciated.
- the floating tool tips/icons on planets etc now look much cleaner.
- direct link to solar system map on probe scanner window is great.
- love how recall probe button is now far away from the scan button.
- I like the ability to use the radial menu to focus dscan on a BM/sig/celestial etc. (but ability for random area of space dscan still needed - see below)
- love the resizable solar system map. background of the map is cool and not distracting.

Room for improvement
- as others have mentioned the white arrows that we use to move probes around are too small. (I play on 90% font). The resize probe arrows are also quite small. Please make them bigger. Also the probe result red dot (centre) is quite small.

- Can you make the colour of windows have a transparency slider or reduce the areas of the probe scanner/ dscan windows that have colour. Because currently the colour is quite distracting. (depending on what overall ui colour scheme a player chooses)

- Scan button doesn't need its own separate colour.

- Dscan cone needs to be repositionable to any area of space. not just celestial/probe results. As often before you do a combat probe scan you will use dscan to approximate a targets position before launching probes +other uses.

- I do find the 'you are here' target crosshair icon wrongly positioned. Because when you zoom out the icon is not actually where you are. But could be several AU 'above' where your ship is located. Maybe replace crosshair icon with a small purple circle (transparent fill) that will show through even with a another icon on top of it.

- ability to toggle on/off the red dscan cone / sphere would be nice. As some people HS explorers etc probably wont ever use dscan. (although they should Twisted )


Hey great call, we haven't actually been trying it out in UI scaling modes yet, so that's super interesting to hear! The Döscan is broken, as I mentioned above and in my OP, it's not changed, it just doesn't work. I don't really understand the Dscan toggle use case? It's only visible when the D-scan window is open.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2015-10-09 10:11:13 UTC
RZN wrote:
Amazing work!

Would it be possible to add and remove headers from the scan result list?

I would really like to be able to sort results by Group or Type. This makes bookmarking much easier and reduces mistakes.




P.S.
Unrelated but has been bugging me for a while. Is there any chance of you guys getting all these awesome threads linked in one place for those of us that do not reddit? I would think the update site would be the best place but i couldn't even find a link to the beta launcher on it .



As I explained in the imgur album, Group and Type aren't gone for good (well, one of them might be actually).

Not sure which "all these threads" you're referring to exactly?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Johnny Splunk
EvE-Scout
EvE-Scout Enclave
#108 - 2015-10-09 10:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Splunk
Testing on a Mac and the current version on Sisi does not have the center box for the probes.

See attached: http://imgur.com/Opt6Jlv

Edit: Looks like they are showing up now, but only after ctrl+probe scanner button.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#109 - 2015-10-09 10:13:26 UTC
Tilk Hendar wrote:
Hi,

I'm not sure it is the good place but i put it here.

Can you add a smaller but cool information is the number of combat anomalies and the number of cosmic signature and maybe number of ore anomalies cause each time we jump in a new wh we have to count line by line and it is so boring...


Thanks and sorry if it is not in good topic :).

Fly Unsafe.


That's quite a good idea actually... I wonder if we have the UI real estate for such a thing. How about, in case we don't have room, a "x selected" display in the bottom left, so if you select all the anomalies or whatever, it's like "9 selected".

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#110 - 2015-10-09 10:14:11 UTC
Johnny Splunk wrote:
Testing on a Mac and the current version on Sisi does not have the center box for the probes.

See attached: http://imgur.com/Opt6Jlv



Is this 100% reproducible for you? IE recall probes, try again, and if that doesn't work relog, try again.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Johnny Splunk
EvE-Scout
EvE-Scout Enclave
#111 - 2015-10-09 10:37:48 UTC
It appears to be a redraw issue. I tried what you suggested without a fix. I can reproduce this nearly 90% of the time. Toggling the SolarSystem map fails to show the probe controls. One time I saw them and then the probes animated in and then the controls vanished.

To reproduce:

1. Ctrl+Click Icon
2. Launch Probes
3. Open SolarSystem View

I can get them to show by doing the following:

- Pressing ctrl
- Pressing alt

I can't get them to show by doing the following:

- Click Analyze button
- Moving or resizing window
- Panning or zooming SolarSystem
- Changing SolarSystem filters
- Changing Scan Results filters
- Changing window docking
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#112 - 2015-10-09 10:45:48 UTC
Johnny Splunk wrote:
It appears to be a redraw issue. I tried what you suggested without a fix. I can reproduce this nearly 90% of the time. Toggling the SolarSystem map fails to show the probe controls. One time I saw them and then the probes animated in and then the controls vanished.

To reproduce:

1. Ctrl+Click Icon
2. Launch Probes
3. Open SolarSystem View

I can get them to show by doing the following:

- Pressing ctrl
- Pressing alt

I can't get them to show by doing the following:

- Click Analyze button
- Moving or resizing window
- Panning or zooming SolarSystem
- Changing SolarSystem filters
- Changing Scan Results filters
- Changing window docking


Great steps, thanks very much for the info :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-10-09 11:01:30 UTC
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
This gets a 10/10, A++ and a huge fkn gold star for moving the recall probes button away from right next to the analyze button!!!!
Actually functionality is aparently bad based on feedback from people I reasonably trust though (I don't do sisi myself)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5980634#post5980634 you're welcome :)

As I've mentioned before, this has been a frequently raised complaint since 2009, but by all means, take your credit.

There is no Bob.

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Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#114 - 2015-10-09 12:55:06 UTC
Wait I want the credit

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#115 - 2015-10-09 14:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Jack Miton wrote:
Quote:
We're not looking just to dscan celestials, we have to dscan completely arbitrary space away from celestials. Free dscan control is completely necessary for combat scanners, not just a radial menu option on celestials.

^quoting this for truth. this is not optional.

Also emphasizing, this is the single most important thing to me.

Edit: sorry just saw the post above. I'll wait until it's fixed to comment more.

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Titan's Lament
Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
#116 - 2015-10-09 14:19:17 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:

EDIT: Holy crap there is so much wrong...

A somewhat less important note:

From what I understand the motivation behind moving the probing and universe map to windows is for the ability to see the grid in the background.
What if you invert it, and have the the grid be contained and rendered in a window of a fixed player defined size, whilst the solar and universe map are in the background? And make the zoom exponential. You can zoom out to max grid size, after a point there is no reason to keep zooming the grid, so it automatically toggles to system map with a grid window (which can be toggled on/off for scanning adjacent areas). And zooming further toggles universe map (sam way you have in old-new beta map, where the system/universe maps are homogenous). So the grid can still be seen as an oversized object in the solar map, and togglable on/off as the player may need. If the scan result is on grid then the sig shows up on the grid window too.


Re: edit
Thank you for posting all the points I was thinking.

Re: suggestion

GREAT idea! When I am scanning I prefer the old map if only for the lower graphic requirements. Hitting F10 gives my graphics card a chance to breathe...

The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes. Part o f the encryption.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2015-10-09 16:00:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Handle size seems to be a hot button issue for a lot of people but no consensus comes from the discussion - some think it's egregiously large, some think it's too small.


I'm only saying the handles when holding ctrl or alt are too small. Since you need a modifier for those to show up at all there's no reason for them to be small.

Quote:
"hiding brackets when another bracket comes in front feels very distracting when moving the camera" - could you show me a picture or video of what you mean? I might just be uncaffeinated at the moment, but I'm having major problems trying to visualise that.


Um. I can't do a video. I made a little imgur album and in the process of making it realised what the little bars above brackets are: hidden brackets. Still, the effect is a lot of blinking icons.

Quote:
Using the keyboard shortcuts would be considered an advanced move, at which point we would assume you know what you're doing. I think the last thing the window needs is more information to care about all the time.


Whether you know what you're doing or not you can't tell whether you have, for instance, just toggled anomalies on or off if there are none in system. The active filter is something you have to "care about all the time" whether it's visible or not as it affects the result list at all times, so having it visible would be strictly an improvement. I know that icons are a strain on the art department, maybe there are some that can be reused.

The sun and the faint nebulae annoy me more every time I open the map. You know what really says science fiction? An efficient visualisation with all necessary information and no distractions, something you can see people actually using.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2015-10-09 18:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Just read about the hotkey for d-scan ... you realize that this is not a QoL change but a re-balancing?

Why?

As a hunter I'm relying to an extend on the prey's d-scan laziness or distraction by other activities. For example today I have to interrupt a hacking activity in order to move my mouse to the dscan button, with the hotkey I can just continue hacking while "automatically" pushing the d-scan key with my other hand every 2s. You remove a very important decision, do I continue my activity or should I interrupt to d-scan. With the introduction of a hotkey you make New Eden safer for the lazy Ugh ...IMO d-scan should remain an active manual "ping" and decision to do so with a tradeoff.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Yngvar ayShorn
Einheit X-6
#119 - 2015-10-09 20:03:57 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Just read about the hotkey for d-scan ... you realize that this is not a QoL change but a re-balancing?

Why?

As a hunter I'm relying to an extend on the prey's d-scan laziness or distraction by other activities. For example today I have to interrupt a hacking activity in order to move my mouse to the dscan button, with the hotkey I can just continue hacking while "automatically" pushing the d-scan key with my other hand every 2s. You remove a very important decision, do I continue my activity or should I interrupt to d-scan. With the introduction of a hotkey you make New Eden safer for the lazy Ugh ...IMO d-scan should remain an active manual "ping" and decision to do so with a tradeoff.


Yep! That's also my opinion.

For your safty, you have to do something, have to work, not do be lazy with a hotkey.

D-Scan need do be a manual thing.

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Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#120 - 2015-10-09 20:38:50 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
As a hunter I'm relying to an extend on the prey's d-scan laziness or distraction by other activities. For example today I have to interrupt a hacking activity in order to move my mouse to the dscan button, with the hotkey I can just continue hacking while "automatically" pushing the d-scan key with my other hand every 2s.


This is true and something I considered too, but moving your mouse to and pressing a button regularly is hardly good gameplay. Balance shouldn't rely on tedium and RSI, maybe more ships should get the d-scan immunity role bonus or probes should be removed from d-scan.