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new scanning user interface testing on sisi

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Author
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#141 - 2015-10-12 15:51:11 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

OK I think I get it now, thanks :)

RE: Map window - enough people felt strongly enough about the windows not being joined together (size concerns, mainly) that we decided to pull them apart. This change has been well enough received that we are likely going to stick with it.

Good point about the hotkey though - will discuss this with Colgate (likely solution off the top of my head - make that hotkey bindable and not only work when the window is active.


RE: Controls for one-handed-scanning. Have you looked into mouse button combinations? For example, click and hold anywhere on the map to start rotating the view, as usual, then tap the secondary mouse button to initiate probe resize. Release all buttons to reset this sequence. Middle mouse button click to center on the cursor (or a celestial under it). This is similar to how some CAD programs work, CATIA in particular, and while it may sound complex at first, it seems just natural after the first thirty minutes.


Feels like that wouldn't translate well to Mac at all.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#142 - 2015-10-12 15:56:33 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

Feels like that wouldn't translate well to Mac at all.


Ah, right, I forgot about the minions of the Apple. Guess two buttons is still too complex for them Twisted
Ben Ishikela
#143 - 2015-10-12 16:47:55 UTC
With the new Scanner Window, i was wondering.
Can we please get a "center probe's formation on own ship's position"-button.
Or is this a bad idea? I really dont know. Please consider.

Some implications:
On grid probe&warp will be faster and easier. (But again: I have no Idea if this would be healthy for the game.)
Systemwide probing unaffected. (unless offgridspot)
Finding the signature name of the wormhole one just jumped through would be way faster.
There is not really a choice of where to put the probes, when you want them on-grid.

If this request seems to be redundant. well. Search did not find anything similar.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#144 - 2015-10-12 19:38:52 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
RE: Orbit lines.
I'll throw in my two cents. They are indeed mostly decoration, but can serve to orient yourself sometimes, as well. The main problem is that with the old map, when you tilted the camera into the ecliptical plane to dscan a moon, the orbit line often ended up in your face, ie: pointing straight at the camera, so I guess that's where the request comes from. Maybe you could dim them when the camera is nearby?

I was refering to non combat scanning. For combat orbit lines are must I presume.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#145 - 2015-10-13 07:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Goliath wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
SpaceSaft wrote:
Thanks for unlocking the probe scanner window and making the solar system fullscreen.

The drag to resize is missing. Why do I have to press modifier keys like alt and ctrl to move or rescale my probes?

Can you give the move arrows priority over symbols on the map? They get in the way for me.

.


Regarding Drag to resize of the probe scale, is really going to be an absolute reason to keep using the old scanner if it is missing on the new one.

Changing scanning into a two handed job, really is not a good idea.

I hope it is something you plan to put back, and it being missing, is just a bug?


"Keep using the old scanner" won't be an indefinite solution - once we are happy with how this interface behaves and looks, the old system will be retired. If you can explain a little more why you have issues with a key modified system beyond "not a good idea", I would be happy to hear your concerns though.


Ok Just to clarify, currently it is possible to scan single handed, using just the mouse.
If it is an absolute requirement to use a second hand to engage a modifier, then It becomes quite unpleasant and impractical in many circumstances. Having a modifier AVAILABLE is a nice idea, but not when there is no alternative.

I hate to give personal examples, but I have recently been bedridden, and EvE has kept me going using a laptop beside the bed.
I can currently scan whilst resting on my left arm and using the mouse with my right.
If it requires two hands, I can only do this sitting up, and then I might as well be in the lounge (which is not possible) or wait a few days until I am stronger. Whilst I have not been able to fully participate, I can at least scan out the WH chain for the corp.

I am certain that many will play the game in situations where they are not sitting in the ideal situation, on a dedicated, clear desk where the monitor and keyboard are directly in front of them, all the time.

Also I am sure people like to drink coffee, or beer, and that needs a hand free :)

Changing an activity from one that utilises one hand to become two handed, is NOT a good improvement. Scanning is a non twitch activity, whilst for combat, travel, ratting etc, two handed use is reasonable, as one is highly committed to the activity, when scanning for hours, requiring physical as well as mental commitment, is excessive.

Please re-enable the ability to drag the probe circle to resize without having to press a modifier key, it is about the only good design feature worth keeping of the old scanner. Why remove it? I have never heard of anyone resizing the probe radius when trying to move the "square" issues there are usually, throwing the probes out a billion miles with the arrows when trying to click the "square" as the cube move arrows, sometimes Get in the way of the cube faces? Other than that the new scanner is looking really good.

Ps trackpads on laptops, magic mice, etc etc, do not have a mouse wheel. And besides the mouse wheel controls zooming in and out, for scanning, that's important as you know. With a Key modified mousewheel, we are back to the same issue of requiring two hands.

The question is do you decide to make scanning a compulsory two handed activity? Is this an improvement? Please consider this carefully as this changes the activity negatively for quite a number of situations, That doesn't seem like a good choice, as for some this will be the defining feature of the new scanner, and all the other good work is wasted, and the now unwanted scanner will appear to be forced on us rather than something to be welcomed. It would be such a shame for that to happen when there is so much to appreciate.

Please consider this very carefully.
Many thanks.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arla Sarain
#146 - 2015-10-13 17:43:47 UTC
Option for the old map needs to stay. New map still has loads of clutter.
SpaceSaft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2015-10-14 06:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceSaft
CCP Goliath wrote:
Many people had issues with the "picking" of probes happening accidentally, so we put the modifier keys in.


That post 2 before this one raises a very good point. Regardless, can you go all the way and map mod key + number to a scanrange if you go ahead with the mod keys?

CCP Goliath wrote:
Why is the focus camera being fast a problem?


I'm kind of surprised I have to restate to you that good tweening feels better.

I find the old tweening very nice on the eyes, it also fits the pace of scanning a lot better. When you scan an entire wormhole you're looking at 10-20 minutes of looking the scanning screen, mostly spent watching the timer tick down and repositing and one of those is rather slow paced and the other would now be a very hectic affair.

Again, if you find this somehow improves the experience, go ahead, but it certainly makes scanning less pleasant to me.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#148 - 2015-10-14 09:05:19 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
With the new Scanner Window, i was wondering.
Can we please get a "center probe's formation on own ship's position"-button.
Or is this a bad idea? I really dont know. Please consider.

Some implications:
On grid probe&warp will be faster and easier. (But again: I have no Idea if this would be healthy for the game.)
Systemwide probing unaffected. (unless offgridspot)
Finding the signature name of the wormhole one just jumped through would be way faster.
There is not really a choice of where to put the probes, when you want them on-grid.

If this request seems to be redundant. well. Search did not find anything similar.


I think this mars convenience with potential balancing so our team would prefer to stay clear of it.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#149 - 2015-10-14 09:15:00 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
SpaceSaft wrote:
Thanks for unlocking the probe scanner window and making the solar system fullscreen.

The drag to resize is missing. Why do I have to press modifier keys like alt and ctrl to move or rescale my probes?

Can you give the move arrows priority over symbols on the map? They get in the way for me.

.


Regarding Drag to resize of the probe scale, is really going to be an absolute reason to keep using the old scanner if it is missing on the new one.

Changing scanning into a two handed job, really is not a good idea.

I hope it is something you plan to put back, and it being missing, is just a bug?


"Keep using the old scanner" won't be an indefinite solution - once we are happy with how this interface behaves and looks, the old system will be retired. If you can explain a little more why you have issues with a key modified system beyond "not a good idea", I would be happy to hear your concerns though.


Ok Just to clarify, currently it is possible to scan single handed, using just the mouse.
If it is an absolute requirement to use a second hand to engage a modifier, then It becomes quite unpleasant and impractical in many circumstances. Having a modifier AVAILABLE is a nice idea, but not when there is no alternative.

I hate to give personal examples, but I have recently been bedridden, and EvE has kept me going using a laptop beside the bed.
I can currently scan whilst resting on my left arm and using the mouse with my right.
If it requires two hands, I can only do this sitting up, and then I might as well be in the lounge (which is not possible) or wait a few days until I am stronger. Whilst I have not been able to fully participate, I can at least scan out the WH chain for the corp.

I am certain that many will play the game in situations where they are not sitting in the ideal situation, on a dedicated, clear desk where the monitor and keyboard are directly in front of them, all the time.

Also I am sure people like to drink coffee, or beer, and that needs a hand free :)

Changing an activity from one that utilises one hand to become two handed, is NOT a good improvement. Scanning is a non twitch activity, whilst for combat, travel, ratting etc, two handed use is reasonable, as one is highly committed to the activity, when scanning for hours, requiring physical as well as mental commitment, is excessive.

Please re-enable the ability to drag the probe circle to resize without having to press a modifier key, it is about the only good design feature worth keeping of the old scanner. Why remove it? I have never heard of anyone resizing the probe radius when trying to move the "square" issues there are usually, throwing the probes out a billion miles with the arrows when trying to click the "square" as the cube move arrows, sometimes Get in the way of the cube faces? Other than that the new scanner is looking really good.

Ps trackpads on laptops, magic mice, etc etc, do not have a mouse wheel. And besides the mouse wheel controls zooming in and out, for scanning, that's important as you know. With a Key modified mousewheel, we are back to the same issue of requiring two hands.

The question is do you decide to make scanning a compulsory two handed activity? Is this an improvement? Please consider this carefully as this changes the activity negatively for quite a number of situations, That doesn't seem like a good choice, as for some this will be the defining feature of the new scanner, and all the other good work is wasted, and the now unwanted scanner will appear to be forced on us rather than something to be welcomed. It would be such a shame for that to happen when there is so much to appreciate.

Please consider this very carefully.
Many thanks.


Hi,

Thanks for the detailed and reasoned feedback. So, the current working theory of the hotkeys is that they will ultimately be bindable to whatever you want. This means that if you want to remap to a mousebutton for instance, you would be able to do that and still keep scanning onehanded if you want to. That being said, that doesn't solve the problems you brought up with touchpads and general accessibility concerns that users may have. I'll take this back to the team and see what they say. You're quite correct though, with the old system picking was very easy and not an issue. Now that we've abstracted the window and made it resizeable however, the problem with picking was becoming more and more of an issue in our feedback.

Two minor tongue in cheek points of rebuttal - EVE isn't a "twitch" game in any part of itself really, and the most "twitchy" experience I've ever had myself in the game has been combat scanning, funnily enough! Also, if all y'all beer and coffee drinkers want to game like champs, you gotta get yourselves some of these:

[img]http://revolutionandbeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/344592d1336775424-beer-carrying-spitfires-world-war-ii-1373436-beerhat_large.jpg[/img]

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#150 - 2015-10-14 09:15:43 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Option for the old map needs to stay. New map still has loads of clutter.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Can you screenshot the interface you're talking about and post back please?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2015-10-14 09:21:54 UTC
SpaceSaft wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Many people had issues with the "picking" of probes happening accidentally, so we put the modifier keys in.


That post 2 before this one raises a very good point. Regardless, can you go all the way and map mod key + number to a scanrange if you go ahead with the mod keys?

CCP Goliath wrote:
Why is the focus camera being fast a problem?


I'm kind of surprised I have to restate to you that good tweening feels better.

I find the old tweening very nice on the eyes, it also fits the pace of scanning a lot better. When you scan an entire wormhole you're looking at 10-20 minutes of looking the scanning screen, mostly spent watching the timer tick down and repositing and one of those is rather slow paced and the other would now be a very hectic affair.

Again, if you find this somehow improves the experience, go ahead, but it certainly makes scanning less pleasant to me.


We want to make the keys remappable to your own convenience ideally. Don't off the top of my head see how numbers could intuitively be mapped to scanrange without having to display that information somewhere, thus adding more crowd to a crowded scene. The numbers I have issue with directly are those below 1 and greater than 10.

If you were kind of surprised at that, I strongly suggest you take a seat before you read my next sentence.

Before right now, I thought "tweening" was something people did about Bieber. Having now done some googling, I will pass it on to the team. I think your scanning use case is not neccesarily representative of the whole picture though - if I'm not just casually scanning a hole, e.g. I'm combat scanning or racing someone to a site, I need things to be fast ergo feel fast. Maybe it'll be a toggle we can put in (unlikely), or we can find a nice intermediate ground (preferable). I've still to do a really prolonged test (targeted at frustration, repetitiveness and any nausea inducers) and this may well become more of an issue over time.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Arla Sarain
#152 - 2015-10-14 10:09:50 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Option for the old map needs to stay. New map still has loads of clutter.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Can you screenshot the interface you're talking about and post back please?

The CTRL+Click map that's outlined in this thread.

Whilst the movement speed is crisp, it isn't tight, there is quite a bit of jitter when moving.

Also interacting with the scanning box is tough with all the system celestials and warpables in the way - constantly end up selecting the celestials instead of the box. Locking the sphere resize behind the ALT button is a nuisance as well.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2015-10-14 11:39:57 UTC
When probes movement cube are in the same place (visually) with for example planets or bookmarks ir other visual indicators of map the cube is not accessible. Wheb you try to move it outside of clamped moon area you have to move camera around or try using different side of cube or use arrows on the cube to move it. Instead of moving probes you are selecting whatever object is on top . This is annoying.

Also can we have "center around" function for right clicking on object in map that would move probes to that location? For example right click on planet and using it would center formation around that planet.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#154 - 2015-10-14 14:06:57 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
SpaceSaft wrote:
Thanks for unlocking the probe scanner window and making the solar system fullscreen.

The drag to resize is missing. Why do I have to press modifier keys like alt and ctrl to move or rescale my probes?

Can you give the move arrows priority over symbols on the map? They get in the way for me.

.


Regarding Drag to resize of the probe scale, is really going to be an absolute reason to keep using the old scanner if it is missing on the new one.

Changing scanning into a two handed job, really is not a good idea.

I hope it is something you plan to put back, and it being missing, is just a bug?


"Keep using the old scanner" won't be an indefinite solution - once we are happy with how this interface behaves and looks, the old system will be retired. If you can explain a little more why you have issues with a key modified system beyond "not a good idea", I would be happy to hear your concerns though.


Ok Just to clarify, currently it is possible to scan single handed, using just the mouse.
If it is an absolute requirement to use a second hand to engage a modifier, then It becomes quite unpleasant and impractical in many circumstances. Having a modifier AVAILABLE is a nice idea, but not when there is no alternative.

I hate to give personal examples, but I have recently been bedridden, and EvE has kept me going using a laptop beside the bed.
I can currently scan whilst resting on my left arm and using the mouse with my right.
If it requires two hands, I can only do this sitting up, and then I might as well be in the lounge (which is not possible) or wait a few days until I am stronger. Whilst I have not been able to fully participate, I can at least scan out the WH chain for the corp.

I am certain that many will play the game in situations where they are not sitting in the ideal situation, on a dedicated, clear desk where the monitor and keyboard are directly in front of them, all the time.

Also I am sure people like to drink coffee, or beer, and that needs a hand free :)

Changing an activity from one that utilises one hand to become two handed, is NOT a good improvement. Scanning is a non twitch activity, whilst for combat, travel, ratting etc, two handed use is reasonable, as one is highly committed to the activity, when scanning for hours, requiring physical as well as mental commitment, is excessive.

Please re-enable the ability to drag the probe circle to resize without having to press a modifier key, it is about the only good design feature worth keeping of the old scanner. Why remove it? I have never heard of anyone resizing the probe radius when trying to move the "square" issues there are usually, throwing the probes out a billion miles with the arrows when trying to click the "square" as the cube move arrows, sometimes Get in the way of the cube faces? Other than that the new scanner is looking really good.

Ps trackpads on laptops, magic mice, etc etc, do not have a mouse wheel. And besides the mouse wheel controls zooming in and out, for scanning, that's important as you know. With a Key modified mousewheel, we are back to the same issue of requiring two hands.

The question is do you decide to make scanning a compulsory two handed activity? Is this an improvement? Please consider this carefully as this changes the activity negatively for quite a number of situations, That doesn't seem like a good choice, as for some this will be the defining feature of the new scanner, and all the other good work is wasted, and the now unwanted scanner will appear to be forced on us rather than something to be welcomed. It would be such a shame for that to happen when there is so much to appreciate.

Please consider this very carefully.
Many thanks.


Hi,

Thanks for the detailed and reasoned feedback. So, the current working theory of the hotkeys is that they will ultimately be bindable to whatever you want. This means that if you want to remap to a mousebutton for instance, you would be able to do that and still keep scanning onehanded if you want to. That being said, that doesn't solve the problems you brought up with touchpads and general accessibility concerns that users may have. I'll take this back to the team and see what they say. You're quite correct though, with the old system picking was very easy and not an issue. Now that we've abstracted the window and made it resizeable however, the problem with picking was becoming more and more of an issue in our feedback.

Two minor tongue in cheek points of rebuttal - EVE isn't a "twitch" game in any part of itself really, and the most "twitchy" experience I've ever had myself in the game has been combat scanning, funnily enough! Also, if all y'all beer and coffee drinkers want to game like champs, you gotta get yourselves some of these:

[img]http://revolutionandbeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/344592d1336775424-beer-carrying-spitfires-world-war-ii-1373436-beerhat_large.jpg[/img]



Thank you very much, your response reassures me that it is really worth giving feedback.
I hope that you have a good discussion with the team.
And back to the humourous side, I bet it was the Beer comment that really struck home :)

Keep up the great work.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2015-10-14 14:16:45 UTC
Are you sure that people were actually complaining about selecting the probes accidentally? The only complaint I've ever had or heard along those lines is selecting things which are not the probes accidentlaly. Generally when your probes are out, the majority of your clicks are in the solar system map are either camera movement or probe movement.
SpaceSaft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2015-10-14 16:05:46 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

We want to make the keys remappable to your own convenience ideally. Don't off the top of my head see how numbers could intuitively be mapped to scanrange without having to display that information somewhere, thus adding more crowd to a crowded scene. The numbers I have issue with directly are those below 1 and greater than 10.


Scan range is 2 to the power of a number between -2 and 5 for core and -1 and 6 for combat probes. That translates very well to
a scale from 1 to 10 corresponding to all scan ranges. (1 -> 0.25 AU , 2 -> 0.5 AU , ... , 9 -> 32 AU, 10 -> 64 AU ).

I think alt is a good mod key, many programs use alt as mod key.

Regarding combat scanning and speed - I don't think the gameplay is that fast, I might be wrong because i'm not doing it very much but I don't think the whole "wait until the timer finished" is very conductive to fast gameplay. I'm sure the CSM or other people here can comment on whether they ever felt the combat scan refocus was too slow.

They too will appreciate the keyboard controls if they're serious about it though.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2015-10-15 16:02:23 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Option for the old map needs to stay. New map still has loads of clutter.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Can you screenshot the interface you're talking about and post back please?

The CTRL+Click map that's outlined in this thread.

Whilst the movement speed is crisp, it isn't tight, there is quite a bit of jitter when moving.

Also interacting with the scanning box is tough with all the system celestials and warpables in the way - constantly end up selecting the celestials instead of the box. Locking the sphere resize behind the ALT button is a nuisance as well.


Have you tried filtering objects you don't care about out of the map? Using the filters in the top left corner.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#158 - 2015-10-15 17:09:33 UTC
He probably does care about those objects, just not enough to let them make him unable to move his probes.
Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#159 - 2015-10-15 22:54:23 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

Have you tried filtering objects you don't care about out of the map? Using the filters in the top left corner.


The issue lies in that the most needed objects are the most plentiful as well. When you're dscanning you want anoms and moons amogn other things, so that's where most of the clutter comes from. You can afford to turn some more stuff off when using probes, but then you'll want to turn them back on after every scan to see where does the warpable sig lie.
Arla Sarain
#160 - 2015-10-18 20:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Option for the old map needs to stay. New map still has loads of clutter.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Can you screenshot the interface you're talking about and post back please?

The CTRL+Click map that's outlined in this thread.

Whilst the movement speed is crisp, it isn't tight, there is quite a bit of jitter when moving.

Also interacting with the scanning box is tough with all the system celestials and warpables in the way - constantly end up selecting the celestials instead of the box. Locking the sphere resize behind the ALT button is a nuisance as well.


Have you tried filtering objects you don't care about out of the map? Using the filters in the top left corner.

I do not recall tampering with the filter options in the old (F10) map. I'm not even sure it has them. I do not expect to have to use them either - it is only naturally intuitive that the new map behaves almost exactly as the old one.

It is difficult to compare now, since on SISI the F10 map no longer has the scanning cube (just tried it 2 minutes ago).

My only guess is that the awkwardness comes with the sphere of influence (hitbox, best I can describe) of the celestial and anomaly/signature brackets in the new map: they are too large, making them sensitive to any cursor pass/swipe. This is especially awkward now that signatures have their own "dot" bracket (which they didn't have in the old map). The dot coincides with the center of the sig sphere, and when you drag the cube onto the center (best positioning guess for initial scan), it consistently overlaps with the "dot" bracket. The sphere of influence of the sig dot bracket is about the size of the scan cube. Because of this, the area of the cube sides are difficult to grab with the sig "dot" bracket in the way.

So, the bracket is just a dot, but it's sphere of influence, or hitbox, is overinflated and too large. A lot of the brackets are.

Hence, if you insist on keep on the signature "dot" brackets, I suggest you introduce some kind of priority for the cursor - if the cube is surrounded by the celestial brackets, when hovering the cursor of the blob of celestials and the cube, the priority will be given to grabbing the cube first.

P.S. The group column (thanks for adding it) cannot be changed in width size in the new probe window when it's anchored along with the D-scan window. All the rest of the columns cannot be reduced beyond some point (I assume the same size as the shortest entry, i.e. the name column cannot be reduced below the size of "Cosmic Signature")

P.S.S. Can you not give us a tickbox for the starfield...?

P.S.S.S. Wheel mouse for probe size is pretty nifty, but the previous drag to stretch had visual feedback, as in you could correlate the direction of the size change with the direction you drag them in. The mouse wheel thingy keeps me testing it out every time, just find out the direction.