These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

NPE feedback Q and A

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#541 - 2015-08-16 20:33:08 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
i mentioned earlier that one solution to how to distribute the 1-2 mil SP is having corporations distribute it while they are training the rookies with their training programs. but how to approach something like this? i dont know but here is how "NASA's ccp program" works https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=440930&find=unread


That seems like a bad idea.
It forces the player to benefit the alliance, and serves no benefit to the individual, especially in the case a newbros, which need a way to make isk.

There's a good chance the corp would force the newbro into an ewar meta/fit as opposed to something that would benefit them as an individual.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#542 - 2015-08-16 21:30:38 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
TheExtruder wrote:
i mentioned earlier that one solution to how to distribute the 1-2 mil SP is having corporations distribute it while they are training the rookies with their training programs. but how to approach something like this? i dont know but here is how "NASA's ccp program" works https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=440930&find=unread


That seems like a bad idea.
It forces the player to benefit the alliance, and serves no benefit to the individual, especially in the case a newbros, which need a way to make isk.

There's a good chance the corp would force the newbro into an ewar meta/fit as opposed to something that would benefit them as an individual.


i suppose it depends on what ccp's goals are with the program. it can be something specific or broad. if the corporation does a good job meeting the requirements they can stay on, the more they progress and make advancements the more certifications they will be awarded, the more ISK
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#543 - 2015-08-20 14:13:28 UTC
Bit late to this thread and 28 pages is too much to skim, but to sudo paste in what I posted elsewhere.

Why not properly utilize the Opportunity system for New Player SP?

People training alts don't care to run them and it may not be in line with what they want so it doesn't give alts a real leg up in the SP department, but using it for fundamental skills would allow new players to pick up SP simply by running the tutorials in the direction they feel they want to go or learn ( cyno should probably not be one of these options ), instead of giving them a skill book, it just grants that skill with lvl 2 or 3, explains what that skill does and could even show the effect on their current ship if applicable. It gets them engaged at minute 0. although I'm not sure why there is mention of 1day+ for new players, I installed at 6pm, was playing until 10am when my eyelids failed me and that was going through the old career/aura stuff. If you say it takes 1day+ before you can start playing, you are not talking as a new player as I can absolutely say that wasn't the case for me.

Could also use this system to help new players understand mappings, give a rough outline for each new skill group and what mappings are best for targeting that group, however a new player that has to train "all the things" may just benefit from a 1-3 month dynamic mapping, always training at optimal, that would have no benefit for training alts ( because you understand the system and map accordingly ) and would help new players build up base skills from many areas that are not all in a line ( drones, ships/weapons, shields/armour/engineering, navigation etc. )

For the last part, if you feel it isn't NPE friendly leave it dynamic ( so it always picks the best mapping based on the skill you are training and all of those stuck in a bad map because they changed direction can rejoice ), then the attribute portion of implants can be left alone as a "Get there a bit faster" method. This would be easier than reworking the whole system.

Isk is easier to gain than SP. I live in Null and personally run +4 and +5 on a regular basis on various characters, switch to a +3 clone if I'm going into a fight in something with a lower survivability ( AF/Fast Tackle ) and an empty head if I'm pretty sure I'm not coming out alive ( yep, that happens, faster to yolo for kills than to fly 60 jumps back ), and yes, I've undocked with the wrong pod on more than one occasion and someone got a >10k isk pod.

I personally see nothing wrong with the attribute system ( 1 year between remaps is pretty harsh to players in the first few years picking up random skills, until they hit those 50 day train skills )
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#544 - 2015-08-22 05:27:00 UTC
i was thinking about the upcoming ghost fitting and was wondering if it had potential to be applied to NPE.

perhaps rookies can compare stats between their own ship and the ships they encounter (can be npc ship the killed or perhaps a abandoned ship in space, or simply a ship they are passing by)

imagine a dual fitting window where you can compare stats to your own ship, and you can also more easily see the skills required to fly the other ship because most of the stuff will be red.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#545 - 2015-08-22 06:15:13 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
i was thinking about the upcoming ghost fitting and was wondering if it had potential to be applied to NPE.

perhaps rookies can compare stats between their own ship and the ships they encounter (can be npc ship the killed or perhaps a abandoned ship in space, or simply a ship they are passing by)

imagine a dual fitting window where you can compare stats to your own ship, and you can also more easily see the skills required to fly the other ship because most of the stuff will be red.


I like the general concept, but the problem with this would be that it would give players information on another player's fit.
However, if you restricted this to linked fits, that another story.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2015-08-31 12:32:04 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
TheExtruder wrote:
i was thinking about the upcoming ghost fitting and was wondering if it had potential to be applied to NPE.

perhaps rookies can compare stats between their own ship and the ships they encounter (can be npc ship the killed or perhaps a abandoned ship in space, or simply a ship they are passing by)

imagine a dual fitting window where you can compare stats to your own ship, and you can also more easily see the skills required to fly the other ship because most of the stuff will be red.


I like the general concept, but the problem with this would be that it would give players information on another player's fit.
However, if you restricted this to linked fits, that another story.


Or linked fits and NPC 'fits,' as far as those go.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#547 - 2015-08-31 14:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: O2 jayjay
Great decision! Im all for the 2 mil SP tbh. Also i like the idea of having civilian mods that are wortst then t1 but doesnt require any skills to use. Example civilian mwd only gives a %350 and increase sig to %700 (just an example)
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2015-08-31 15:01:44 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I started when choosing race and skill meant something about the skills you started with. I actually miss that.

But I have a question for you

Ganker
Miner
PvP tackle
Solo Roamer (low)
Missioneer
Industrialist
Trader
add any other startable professions here

for any and all of these what would be the base skills you would expect to start with to be able to act on day 1? In Rookie chat we get vasriations of this question all the time so what would you tell them, as things currently stand. 21 days, what should they train to be specificly able to follow a chosen career?

btw I love the idea of skill points or a jump in that skill as an award for completing missions for the tutorial/career agents. This makes sense, leads to knowledge of what they are being given and how it will be used. Far far better than here is 1 mill skill points newb, knock yourself out. (Because they will, literally)

m


I think this is the best way to solve the issue. As they go through the tutorials, certain skills will be unlocked. This will keep players from spamming alts.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#549 - 2015-09-03 05:30:12 UTC
1 year cd on remaps is too long, needs to be 6months or less. that's almost no dev time for a lot of good for the new players especially.

maybe even give new players 2 month remap cooldown for the first year or whatever. anything to help them is good
Meeka Ashwyn
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2015-09-05 19:43:01 UTC
Some really great suggestions in this thread.

Here are mine from another thread:

Quote:
1. Remove / hide attributes, remove learning implants and attributes from other implants and introduce more skill hardwirings to slot 1-5.

Why?
Attributes prevent both old and new player from trying out skills that are outside their current attribute configuration (learning missiles as int/mem and so on).
Learning Implants or attributes on other implants make people more afraid to undock because they fear to lose out on precious skillpoints either by undocking with +5 implants and losing them or by using only a +3 clone.
Replacing these learning implants with skill hardwirings (that actually improve the performance of the clone) will keep all the people happy who like big numbers from pod kills.


2. Let new characters learn skills at a faster pace.
Example (with only 30 days per month):
1. Month 5000 SP/H (3.600.000 SP at the end of the month)
2-6. Month 4000 SP/H (14.400.000 SP during the 2. to 6. month)
7-12. Month 3000 SP/H (12.960.000 SP for the last 6 month of the first year)
Every character older than one year would learn at the current 2700 SP/H.

Hope these numbers are correct. Numbers can be adjusted but the basic idea is to learn fast at the beginning and slow down to the normal learning rate by the end of the first year.

Why?
One of the most exciting things when you start EVE is this huge amount of skills and possible paths to take. There is so much to try out but it takes so long to learn but this change allows new players to make the most of their first month and at the end of the year you feel like you can stand toe to toe with the veteran players (skillpoint wise) but still have alot to learn.

During the first month a new player could easily learn all necessary skills to IV for several career paths in EVE and try them out or focus on one and come very close to perfecting it.

After the first year a new player (or character) will have aquired 30.960.000 SP. That is around 7-8 million skillpoints more than a character with +5 and perfect remap could achieve and it is enough to try different things out and still be competent at more than one.


3. Introduce missions that ask a player to travel to low, null or w-space.
No special item to aquire or station to land at, only a certain low / null system (random for every player) or a certain number of different w-space systems to be visited. How a player gets their doesn't matter. No time limit, no way to fail it, can only be done once per week. Payout (5-15 milion ISK should be enough, alot for new players) should depend on the number of jumps to reach the destination or number of w-systems to visit.

Why?
All the EVE players who want new people to go outside of high-sec are right. The first time it feels dangerous but sooo exciting even if the system was actually empty and there was no threat at all.
So this type of mission gives new players a direction to start with, a reason to leave high-sec, a goal to reach, a destination to travel to.

The reason it should be done only once a week is simple: prevent abuse of more experienced players as much as possible and give new players time to complete them without the new player feeling rushed.


So with these three suggestions we gave (new) players a way to try out different career paths in EVE by letting them learn faster, we took away the fear of losing skillpoints by doing something dangerous and/or new for both new and old players and we gave (new) players a reason to leave high-sec (perhaps they will like what they see out there).



Also some other things:

4. If you (CCP) intend to do tutorial missions or anything that explains ingame mechanics then create a small video for each with Aura or any other character explaining with voice over.

Why? Unfortunatly the current generation of gamers are to lazy to read and would just skip any mission description.


5. Change skill requirements from V to IV on anything that has it (skills, T2 modules, T2 ships, NOT implants).

Why? Level Vs are for perfection. If a player wants to fly a T2 frigate, let them with Race Friage IV and Assault Frigate I (Mechanics IV, Power Grid Management IV instead of V).

Level Vs will no longer be mandatory for certain things but still useful and necessary for other things. Combinded with the other changes new players could do so much during their first year and still have plenty of space to grow.


And here some suggestions for new skill hardwirings to replace current learning implants in slots 1-5:

+x% LP / bounty / standing / sec status gain
+x market slots
+x contract slots
+x% cargo space
+x virus coherence
+x% probe strength
-x% probe deviathion / scan time

and so on.

There are alot of fields with no implants like planet management, scanning, trading, social and drones.

So how to remove the current learning implants? They do have a LP and ISK cost so it should be easy to reimburse them. Question is with which corporations LP. CONCORD perhaps?

Zihao
Doomheim
#551 - 2015-09-06 01:19:14 UTC
Meeka Ashwyn wrote:

5. Change skill requirements from V to IV on anything that has it (skills, T2 modules, T2 ships, NOT implants).

Why? Level Vs are for perfection. If a player wants to fly a T2 frigate, let them with Race Friage IV and Assault Frigate I (Mechanics IV, Power Grid Management IV instead of V).



Yeah, I have to say, as a new player who is absolutely ambivalent attribute changes and all the rest of the suggestions here: I really agree with this. It's amazing how far you can go as a newbie just training everything to level 3 and selectively training the useful stuff to level 4. Then you run into requisite level 5 skills and your time profile balloons over-night. It's a jarring change of pace that really puts a damper on an otherwise fantastic skill system.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#552 - 2015-09-06 01:23:28 UTC
Zihao wrote:
Meeka Ashwyn wrote:

5. Change skill requirements from V to IV on anything that has it (skills, T2 modules, T2 ships, NOT implants).

Why? Level Vs are for perfection. If a player wants to fly a T2 frigate, let them with Race Friage IV and Assault Frigate I (Mechanics IV, Power Grid Management IV instead of V).



Yeah, I have to say, as a new player who is absolutely ambivalent attribute changes and all the rest of the suggestions here: I really agree with this. It's amazing how far you can go as a newbie just training everything to level 3 and selectively training the useful stuff to level 4. Then you run into requisite level 5 skills and your time profile balloons over-night. It's a jarring change of pace that really puts a damper on an otherwise fantastic skill system.


Would also give purpose to why some of the bonuses for t2 hulls are in the required t1 skill.
Why have the bonuses to the skill, if you know the skill will be at 5 to begin with?
Amber Starview
Doomheim
#553 - 2015-09-06 03:24:02 UTC
concord corp - the aim to train players on the 1st 30 days of play to experience all of space safely without wardecs/grief unable to undock situations etc
Run by players monitored by the csm ,ranks with benefits for players who give their time for others -help more get better benefits
New players instantly joined instead of dumped in npc pointless corp

i think this is the easiest solution - using the fantastic eve community .pay them if necessary in in game bonuses what do u lose
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#554 - 2015-09-08 21:47:59 UTC
not going to quote the people talking about lv5 skills....

I will just say that lv5 is not for perfection for hulls, unless your talking about t1's

Want to fly a t2, or some of the pirate ships etc at certain capabilties.....then you need to train those skills to lv5

In the US you dont get your drivers license unless you pass all parts of the test for being allowed to get one....same thing here.
Quit crying.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#555 - 2015-09-08 22:04:43 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
not going to quote the people talking about lv5 skills....

I will just say that lv5 is not for perfection for hulls, unless your talking about t1's

Want to fly a t2, or some of the pirate ships etc at certain capabilties.....then you need to train those skills to lv5

In the US you dont get your drivers license unless you pass all parts of the test for being allowed to get one....same thing here.
Quit crying.


Yes, but said driver's license does not dictate whether you can drive a pinto or a hummer.
Meeka Ashwyn
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2015-09-09 16:24:18 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
not going to quote the people talking about lv5 skills....

I will just say that lv5 is not for perfection for hulls, unless your talking about t1's

Want to fly a t2, or some of the pirate ships etc at certain capabilties.....then you need to train those skills to lv5

In the US you dont get your drivers license unless you pass all parts of the test for being allowed to get one....same thing here.
Quit crying.


The same argument was made around a year ago in this thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357037&find=unread

Unfortunatly real life comparisions do not help new players stick with the game.


The thing is you already can fly a Machariel and other pirate battleships with both racial battleship skills at I
You can fly a T1 ship with it's skill at I.
You can fly a T1 navy ship with it's skill at II.
You can fly a T1 pirate ship with it's skill at III (frigates only as far as I see).
With skill at III you unlock the next bigger ship class.
And then there is nothing with IV and T2 with V.

So moving T2 to IV and having V for the last little bit of performence seems to make sense, no?

Afterall currently you only need Racial Freighter IV to use Jump Freighters (the T2 version of the Freighter).

So this
Quote:
Want to fly a t2, or some of the pirate ships etc at certain capabilties.....then you need to train those skills to lv5

isn't quite correct.


In my opinion there is this mentality of "because I had to go through it, everyone else should too" in the Eve community and it has a negativ effect on the new player retention.

This change wouldn't affect players that already learned the skills. They could still fly their ships at the same level of effectivness as before.

T2 prices would rise, yes. Would that be a bad thing?

More use of T2 would mean more juicy killmails.

It would certainly mean that new players feel like they can contribute more to their fleet mates even if they miss the last 20%.

It COULD improve PLEX sales because people need ISK for those expensive T2 hulls.

It COULD encourage trial players to subscribe, because then all those nice ships behind the trial account barrier would seem alot closer.

I wonder how many new players saw the 100+ days training time for marauders and said "nope.." and thats only to sit in it, no weapon, fitting or support skills.
It doesn't matter whether a new player should or should not fly a marauder, it a psychological barrier to even start playing when something they want to fly seems half a year away.

And don't get me wrong, I do not want instant gratification for new players but there is a middleground between instant gratification and stupid amount of waiting.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#557 - 2015-09-09 17:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Meeka Ashwyn wrote:
I wonder how many new players saw the 100+ days training time for marauders and said "nope.." and thats only to sit in it, no weapon, fitting or support skills.

If they say No to the game because of a long training time for a very advanced ship that has no practical use for a new player, then these unsubscribing players are no asset to the game and therefor their unsubbing no loss to the game.

And no, moving T2 hulls/modules to level IV of a skill does not make sense. T2 are specializations, and in order to specialize, you train the general skill to the max and then continue with that knowledge into the specialization skill. Level IV is not a specialization, that's barely above general knowledge and does not require any commitment to a certain skill area.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#558 - 2015-09-09 21:13:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

If they say No to the game because of a long training time for a very advanced ship that has no practical use for a new player, then these unsubscribing players are no asset to the game and therefor their unsubbing no loss to the game.


See, I get what you're saying here, but at the same time, this is the mentality keeping Eve from being more, and is also potentially an issue that would cause its death.

I understand that we don't want to change Eve to make it less hostile to new players, but at the same time, we need to make it more accessible to new players.

There are a few things that stop players from subbing.

1) The hostility of life in Eve - I can agree that we DO NOT want players that can't live with this.. We don't want Eve to fundamentally change into something other than what we know it as. I used to be nothing more than a pure carebear and took issue with the hostility that is Eve. However, I have come to terms with this aspect of Eve and have actually come to enjoy it.... I'm not even that upset when I lose something anymore....

2) The learning curve - This is likely the biggest issue with Eve. The game doesn't give you enough basic training, the players are a bit hostile towards training others and/or the good ones are hard to find, and having to resort to out of game utilities for basic training is ridiculous. Why in the hell should I have to go to youtube just to learn how to fit a ship with the most basic of PVE fits?

3) Time to accomplishment - I understand that we don't want players to be able to fly a Titan on day 5, but in order to consider someone competitive with a ship, they need to be able to fit that ship fully t2 and/or have a ton of trained up support skills for tanking, damage, application, agility, velocity, warping and many other aspects.

4) Assumptions of vet players - See, this is a problem for newbros because it affects what changes could/would be made, as vets often block these with assumptions on what is possible.
It has been said several times that it only takes so long to get into said ship with said fit, but what they don't consider is that a newbro is not aware of this.
There is then the counter argument to that, which is learning from a vet. However, the issue with this argument is again the assumption that all newbros have the same experiences. This is not the case. Not every newbro will meet a vet that helps them out along their way. Not every newbro will find a corp/alliance that will help them in the beginning.
Not every newbro will have a limited amount of waisted skill training, as some won't learn what they've been doing wrong for quite some time. Not every newbro has someone there telling them you shouldn't train into a battleship until you are competent with said fittings/ships, and they certainly won't have someone there to tell them not to fly said battleship until they're competent with said fittings/ship.


You will argue that we've all gone through this, but that doesn't make it right. That would be like the Wright brothers inventing the air plane and then saying "now you figure it out".
The advantage we have with experience is that we can use said experience to optimize things for those that come after us, in order to provide a better experience.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#559 - 2015-09-10 06:11:37 UTC
Making EVE less hostile and reducing training time for things like Marauders, CS or Capitals are two things that have nothing, absolutely nothing, in common with each other when it comes to new player experience. Not even the fairly lengthy training time for HAC or AF has something to do with it. If a new player cancels its sub or stops playing the trail because they cannot get to a Marauder fast (fast in their warped perception) enough, they are setting wrong priorities and this is something that ought not to be supported.

To your point 2: The first part is a player driven problem, not a game related problem. If players do not want to teach new players things (which is not true because there are things like E-Uni and new players should probably be funneled into E-Uni after the start, as I have said many times before) and complain about lack of new players, dwindling subs and drying out targets, it is the players' fault alone.
The second part about accessing YouTube or otherwise guides: There you have a completely wrong approach. These guide videos are so much more comprehensible and graphical than anything CCP can put in the game to explain things. Players would have to watch more comprehensive guides in addition to the lackluster explanations in the game, which creates even more work for them. I do not see how this is helpful at all. Instead, proper YT or otherwise video/presentation guides should be easier accessible from within the game, also as said many times before. To me, this is a completely normal thing to do when I do not understand something in a game. I look up guides and videos and see exactly how it is being done and can replicate the steps easily in the game. I do not understand how this could possibly be a problem. On the other hand, I can see who has problems with this: Angry Bird and COD generation and type of players. And I loath these.
The learning curve is not the problem; the problem are the players who come in with wrong expectations and demands and the other players, who do not properly educate new players.

To your point 4: Then it needs to be explained to them by players. How hard can this be? If players are (or were) really interested in getting new players into the game, they (would) explain things to them. And if new players are (were?) really interested in getting the hang of the real game (not just solo Raven leveling), they would ask and research. Every new player can meet a proper vet if they find out about E-Uni, Agony,even (and to say this makes me choke) CFC's training fleets/videos with Laz or a lot of the other "training corps" that I've come to see as of late. These are things that new players need to be made aware of.

Not reduction in training time is the answer, a tearing down of the barrier to knowledge is the answer. That is essentially all you are saying in your last couple of lines and I agree fully with this. However, it's a harder way to go, a more complicated and onerous way. It remains to be seen whether CCP and the players have the will and endurance to take this way on the fork or go the easy way instead, which is pointless skill time reduction, give-aways, and breeding of easier to kill targets.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Jeremiah VII
Cobramos
#560 - 2015-09-10 17:30:35 UTC
Why not start with - point them at the Career Agents immediately, rather than at the "end" of the Opportunities cycle? You have a framework in place that explains things to newbs (if they actually read the details), gives them some starting ISK, ships & equipment, and is good practice.

Change that to be the default, then look at feedback. /shrug