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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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NPE feedback Q and A

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#521 - 2015-08-10 06:09:43 UTC
Why not? Isn't this the first major thing that sparks social interaction and makes people talk to each other; that makes them notice there are other people in the game who you can talk to, who know more than you and can help (or screw) you and who you can play with or against at some point?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#522 - 2015-08-10 13:48:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Why not? Isn't this the first major thing that sparks social interaction and makes people talk to each other; that makes them notice there are other people in the game who you can talk to, who know more than you and can help (or screw) you and who you can play with or against at some point?


yeah... No... In the early days, most Eve players will make, and are trying to make, you quit.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#523 - 2015-08-10 15:00:42 UTC
As if this was any different from the later stages. At least they would learn what it takes to stomach EVE right from the start and not fall prey to fatal temptations.

It would also introduce them to the Butterfly Effect trailer feeling. vOv

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#524 - 2015-08-10 15:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
some of the problems with NPE:
- rookies are cut off from meaningful interaction with the vets, the rewards are too small
- not a very intuitive spaceship game, rookie ship also not intuitive
- hard to see the big picture of what is possible in the game and set goals based on ingame inspiration

just few ideas:
- rookie ships can be fitted like normal ships in eve instead of just 2 civilian gunz.
- rookie ships could be changed to be the first ship
class that can be so heavily modified in terms of fitting that they automatically change ship class without rookies having to buy their first ship
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#525 - 2015-08-11 10:19:14 UTC
Yuvak Ogeko wrote:
Rivr pls. You clearly haven't done this. Your timetable is way off ............



I remember when it took nearly 30 days to get into a retriever.......

Now it takes only approx 8 days to get into barge fully t1 fitted, and with drones if focused on training.

Getting into a t1 cruiser like a caracal even is not a far fetch in a week or less t1 fitted and possibly maybe even kill Dagan with it.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#526 - 2015-08-11 22:03:24 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Yuvak Ogeko wrote:
Rivr pls. You clearly haven't done this. Your timetable is way off ............



I remember when it took nearly 30 days to get into a retriever.......

Now it takes only approx 8 days to get into barge fully t1 fitted, and with drones if focused on training.

Getting into a t1 cruiser like a caracal even is not a far fetch in a week or less t1 fitted and possibly maybe even kill Dagan with it.


That may be true, but it doesn't factor the amount of time it takes to train the skills required for fitting capability, which leaves you with almost no fitting capability, which limits what you can fit, not to mention your capabilities.
Not to mention, I don't know anyone that would suggest a t1 build.
The only time someone suggests a t1 fit is when it's a throw away for a mass fleet blob, or comes with the caveat of getting said modules to t2 ASAP.

You must then also factor the amount of time it takes to acquire the isk for said ships and modules.
Contrary to popular belief of most vets, isk isn't that easy or that prevalent as a new bro.

Not to mention having no clue on how to fit said ships for anything, let alone a proper tank.


It gets annoying hearing this "it only takes so long for said ship" argument, as this argument assumes that said person has knowledge on Eve.

The only players that were able to get a good start like this are those that had friends already in Eve, or found someone willing to give them the time of day which is pretty rare.

We need to stop looking at this as "here's what they can do" and instead say "what do they need to know how to do".
This is why I revert back to my suggested training program.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5920852#post5920852

It gives a fun experience without giving said new bro the ability to fly every ship in game.
During this training process, the game will put them into different racial frigates, and require them to train specific skills.
Once they get to the finale of dieing, they're then given the option to choose their race, and possibly even build their character at this time. Once that is done, they are then re-spawned in the newbro area of their selected race, and all the SP they've trained during that time period, is reverted into skills related to the race they chose.
So, instead of giving them free skills, the system instead trains them on how to implement skills, and then reverts that SP to relevant skills of their selected race.

Though, I still say to get rid of the 1x skills. They are nothing but gateway skills, and removing them from the game gives newbros a significant head start, while not giving much in the way of SP to vets.

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2015-08-11 22:58:13 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
It gets annoying hearing this "it only takes so long for said ship" argument, as this argument assumes that said person has knowledge on Eve.

I'm ok with player knowledge as a gate, so long as the basics are either outright explained or otherwise objectively intuitive.

My problem with the "it only takes so long..." argument is that it often assumes the player has a main to fall back on while training. It takes a special sort of disconnection from reality to propose a 4 month Logi Cruiser skill train for newbros - but it happens.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#528 - 2015-08-11 23:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Aerasia wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
It gets annoying hearing this "it only takes so long for said ship" argument, as this argument assumes that said person has knowledge on Eve.

I'm ok with player knowledge as a gate, so long as the basics are either outright explained or otherwise objectively intuitive.


Agreed. However, the issue with this is Eve needs to at least give them training on what most of us consider general knowledge.
The market, basic fittings, skills, hard points, etc. etc...

The more 'advanced' knowledge of Eve, such as advanced fittings typical in PVP, fleet structure, proper situational settings for overview, advanced combat control used in PVP, etc. etc. - These aren't things you can just be shown how to do. They'll still require experience.

So, a training program that just tells them how to play Eve on a basic level.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#529 - 2015-08-12 02:48:38 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
It gets annoying hearing this "it only takes so long for said ship" argument, as this argument assumes that said person has knowledge on Eve.

I'm ok with player knowledge as a gate, so long as the basics are either outright explained or otherwise objectively intuitive.


Agreed. However, the issue with this is Eve needs to at least give them training on what most of us consider general knowledge.
The market, basic fittings, skills, hard points, etc. etc...

The more 'advanced' knowledge of Eve, such as advanced fittings typical in PVP, fleet structure, proper situational settings for overview, advanced combat control used in PVP, etc. etc. - These aren't things you can just be shown how to do. They'll still require experience.

So, a training program that just tells them how to play Eve on a basic level.


Uhm training program.........thats what vets are for. that is why newbs should ask questions, talk in local....while doing career agent missions and the SOE EA, in fact i recently saw a lot of talking in Arnon, and people passing on required knowledge.

Problem with some, yes only some newbies is they are blockheaded anal retentive and aspire to not listen to veterans, get frustrated, blown up, and quit.
CCP doesnt need to create a fully hand holding tutorial, how about you try teaching newbies the ins and outs instead.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#530 - 2015-08-12 05:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Max Deveron wrote:


Uhm training program.........thats what vets are for. that is why newbs should ask questions, talk in local....while doing career agent missions and the SOE EA, in fact i recently saw a lot of talking in Arnon, and people passing on required knowledge.

Problem with some, yes only some newbies is they are blockheaded anal retentive and aspire to not listen to veterans, get frustrated, blown up, and quit.
CCP doesnt need to create a fully hand holding tutorial, how about you try teaching newbies the ins and outs instead.


flawed... One of the most important suggestions made about Eve is don't trust anyone.
There's just as many vets out there that will give you bad info, as there are that will give you good info.

There's also those that won't help at all.


Also, vets shouldn't have to spend all their time teaching newbros the very basics of Eve, that the game should provide them...

It's one thing explaining to them dual prop, dual reps, kiting, traversal countering, and many other advanced strategies; But it's another thing to explain the very base mechanics of the game...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#531 - 2015-08-12 05:49:32 UTC
Very basics like? That you should not trust everyone in EVE unconditionally and check their information? That a ship moves with double clicks instead of WASD and WASD, although available, is utterly inferior to clicking? That you warp to things by clicking on them and pressing a button (which is already explained in tuts and opps)? That you shoot someone by equipping weapons and locking a target before activating the weapons (isn't that the same in every other game that's not a cheap COD-like shooter?)? That you need to buy items on the market in order to equip your ship (is this really something a vet needs to explain to newbies ôO)? Different engagement mechanics and conditions in the different security levels (I find it staggering that people cannot connect the concept of High security space with the concept of restricted engagement scenarios on their own)?

What other basic principles are there that need to be explained to them?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#532 - 2015-08-12 06:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Very basics like? That you should not trust everyone in EVE unconditionally and check their information? That a ship moves with double clicks instead of WASD and WASD, although available, is utterly inferior to clicking? That you warp to things by clicking on them and pressing a button (which is already explained in tuts and opps)? That you shoot someone by equipping weapons and locking a target before activating the weapons (isn't that the same in every other game that's not a cheap COD-like shooter?)? That you need to buy items on the market in order to equip your ship (is this really something a vet needs to explain to newbies ôO)? Different engagement mechanics and conditions in the different security levels (I find it staggering that people cannot connect the concept of High security space with the concept of restricted engagement scenarios on their own)?

What other basic principles are there that need to be explained to them?


Yes, let's belittle the idea of a better tutorial/training program new newbros.

Basic principles that we all understand as vets, but is not explained to newbros unless a vet explains it to them.

Shield vs armor, passive/ buffer vs active tank, difference in weapon types, difference in short and long range weapons, prop mods, resists, fitting skills, weapon and tanking support skills, tracking, missiles in general (missiles are something you must discover and are never introduced to), difference in ammo types, logistics, enhancement and fitting modules, implants, rigs, standings, the safety mechanic and how it applies to you, low sec, probing, PI, traversal/tracking, sig radius, how to know the fitting costs of modules (IE how to understand item info for Christ sake), aggression timers, setting way points, fleets, capacitor, agents, and so much more.

There are TONS of things we as vets consider basic knowledge which newbros (without any experience or a friend in game) are given no information on.
I mean, the game doesn't even explain how to show item info, let alone what it all means.

CCP has very literally relied on the player base to train the player base.
This is wrong on so many levels and is, quite frankly, the major cause of their low retention.

Most of my first year in Eve was spent just figuring out the game.
Had I been given half the knowledge I now possess, I might have accomplished something other than mining and getting crappy ships blown up in missions due lack of skills and knowledge.
How many vets do you know that think it's ok to fly a t1 fitted Megathron into a lvl 4 with basically no drone, tank, turret, or other support skills?
If you manage to find one, slap that person for me and tell them NO.
Yet, this and many other aspects of Eve are not explained to newbros.
Hell, they don't even explain CPU..

Contrary to popular belief, this game is not called 20 questions.

Remember that old laughable diagram of the Eve learning curve?
You realize it hasn't gotten any better, don't you?
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2015-08-12 07:08:42 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
[How many vets do you know that think it's ok to fly a t1 fitted Megathron into a lvl 4 with basically no drone, tank, turret, or other support skills?
Compared to the number of vets that lost their first BS to an L4 they thought would be a cakewalk? Twisted

Your list of concepts is great at showing the difference between things that need to be explained vs. those that can be inferred.

The whole gunnery tracking system is pure madness for a newbro, and I'd wager less than 5% of the entire playerbase actually understands what's going on in there. So that one could use a relatively detailed explanation of the core concepts. But once somebody knows the deal with transversal and signature radius, the pros and cons of MWD vs. Afterburner become way more obvious.

Difference in ammo types however would be something you can do with some UI improvements. If I know what the stats mean (because those got explained), what I really need to see for ammo is the different types lined up against eachother. The comparison window kinda, sorta works for that but is a bit inconspicuous and unfriendly to work with.

It's too bad we can't get a peek at those play tests that CCP did when piloting the Opportunities system. That would be an awesome look over the shoulder of real newbies.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#534 - 2015-08-12 08:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Joe Risalo wrote:
CCP has very literally relied on the player base to train the player base.
This is wrong on so many levels and is, quite frankly, the major cause of their low retention.

That is the point of this social sandbox, don't you think? Roll

Joe Risalo wrote:
Most of my first year in Eve was spent just figuring out the game.
Had I been given half the knowledge I now possess, I might have accomplished something other than mining and getting crappy ships blown up in missions due lack of skills and knowledge.
How many vets do you know that think it's ok to fly a t1 fitted Megathron into a lvl 4 with basically no drone, tank, turret, or other support skills?

No one does and every vet and guide tells everyone very clearly that you need proper piloting skills for L4s. Even the agents in some mission descriptions tell you that you need serious skills and equipment to be able to survive. Furthermore, if a newbie thinks they can make it through an L4 and fail miserably, that should teach them a lesson to first investigate a bit on what you are about to do. It should also make them learn from mistakes. It should also teach them to never underestimate an engagement, whether it's against dumb NPC, intelligent NPC or completely lunatic player behavior. I think these are important things Newbies need to learn. If they do it "right" and inform themselves via guids, other players or are able to analyze before taking actions or "wrong" by trail-and-lots-of-errors is up to them. I do not see where the problem is.

Joe Risalo wrote:
Remember that old laughable diagram of the Eve learning curve?
You realize it hasn't gotten any better, don't you?

I vividly remember it and I hope this will never ever change. Blink

All the things you listed are explained in the various guides, diagrams, wiki articles, tutorials, videos, even the item descriptions themselves (Please remove that part from your post that says nothing explains how to view item info. If people are too dense to see the (i) for what it is or cannot click an orange link in chats, they have no place in this game. Neither do they have a place if they cannot understand what Traits, Description, Attributes and Fitting wants to tell them) give information about what the items do.
I agree on some parts (safety mechanics, for one, where CCP really needs to improve the visual display of the respective official wiki article, or what you can and cannot do in fleets) but the rest should be up for discovery. Discovering the game is part of what makes EVE what it is. For most, if not all the things you listed in your post, there are at least 2 or more pieces of information available on the internet. And a lot of that stuff is explained in the tutorial if people would bother to run and read it. Not to mention: You expect CCP to be able to do a better job at explaining how things work and function in EVE? They cannot even get basic things such as the new map right. Roll It boggles me how you can possible expect that CCP can explain things in better ways than players who actually use and investigate these things.

--

As for the Ammo Types: An example for L Crystals. Cost me a 2 second Google search (EVE Online ammo guide) and 4 clicks. I do not see how that is a problem. (In particular not, as Google autosuggested the above after "EVE Online Tracking", so a new player does not even need to know exactly what they need to search for; general terms like these (and they really should be able to enter these 3 words into Google) yields the results they want to know.) Not for people with a proper sense of curiosity and exploration drive, that is. For the rest? I could not care less about these. Roll

Oh, and Aerasia: The information on tracking (EVE Uni link with even more explanations than the official wiki), fall off, flight time and all the gunnery and missile calculations are already available in the EVE Online Wiki. Who do you think will read that? No one. Remember what CCP's reason for the Opportunities was? Exactly: The tutorial had too much text, was too long winded and dry. And now you expect people to read a thousands of words long guide on how tracking and missile range work? That is a particular kind of ludicrous. Roll They do not do it in the wiki (or other sources) that already exist, they will not do it if a large window with tons of text pops up ingame.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#535 - 2015-08-12 09:23:02 UTC
It has to be said that lowering the bar to entry to cater to new people is good, but lowering the ceiling to make the weak seem less small (or to bow the mighty over) has been the death of plenty of games. Every time we see a loss of sophistication in a game to raise the unfit (compared to simply making access easier) we see a loss of motive force of the game.

EVE has 99 problems but information sparsity isn't one.
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#536 - 2015-08-12 13:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: VaL Iscariot
Regarding extra skill points for starting players:

Back in olden times, during character creation, you were asked a series of questions that would lead you to fleshing out your attributes and starting skills. I remember a bit of trial and error picking Caldari, Deteis, Soldier, ect. I did all this because I wanted to be a proud SWArten and because of the starting pool of skill points that gave me higher frigate skills so I could get in a cruiser faster. Now, this system is painfully outdated, but revisiting this might not be such a bad idea.

Edit: It would also be neat-o if these choices (soldier, tube child ect) were reflected in the character description instead of the standard blurb about the characters race
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#537 - 2015-08-12 21:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
my latest idea for NPE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=440212&find=unread its basically making the eve forums more accessible to rookies so they can learn about the game on a intuitive platform, im not sure but i suspect chatting ingame is not necessarily the ultimate way to learn about the game. this would buff recruitment process too
Aeon Veritas
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2015-08-14 12:24:19 UTC
My Suggestion from the thread Attributes #10. I think this fits here, too.
Aeon Veritas wrote:
First I have to agree, attributes add a interesting layer of depth to the skill system, but are hard to understand for new players.

I think the remaps are fine as they are now. At least for older characters who want to specialize.
And this is my point of view, maybe we should think the other way for new characters.
Not giving them more remaps, but giving them none at the start so they don't have to wrap their head around this stuff, too.
After 6 month the first remap should be granted and again 6 month later the second. After this the waiting period of 1 year as it is now should apply.

As balancing for this I would suggest that they get a decaying attribute bonus for the first 6 month.
I'm not quite sure about the height and decay-rate, but something like they start with full attributes and decay to the even distribution as they start now with.
(the even distribution point is reached after the 6 month as soon as the first remap is available)

The advantage of this is that new players can just skill around, testing everything they come to without worrying about their sp/h.
After 6 month they should be ready to decide in what direction they want to specialize, at least for the next 6 month...

Marisha Ten
Perkone
Caldari State
#539 - 2015-08-15 07:39:31 UTC
First of let me start by saying that I'm not sure why its taken this long to figure out the new player experience in EVE. Perhaps there are technical, budgetary of visionary limitations that we are not privy to but if CCP were serious about fixing it here is how I would recommend they do it:

First start with a newbie only “Zone”. 1HS, 1LS and 1NS system with a set of wormholes.

1) Player starts in HS with a rookie ship and gets the interface tutorial
2) Player gets a navigation tutorial docks at station
3) Player gets first easy combat mission, kills a drone, learns about combat interface
3a )Player now has the option of doing harder combat missions and learning more. A series of gates would show the player the effects of different things like range, falloff, tank type, AB vs MWD, overheat, tracking, drones, missiles, cap management, logi, Ewar, ammo type.
3b) Having completed the basics the player will then be faced with a series of burner like missions where he/she will have to use the skills learned in 3a, fit the ship accordingly. Hints should be readily available and these should be easy with the right setup.
3c) Challenge missions fits that train certain advanced skills like spiraling, range control etc. Lock players into the correct fit ( I suggest providing a mission specific ship that’s balanced correctly, and work on piloting skill)
4) Teach players about the market, give them bookmarks to the trade hubs since those haven’t changed in years.
5) Career basics, pve, Explo, mining etc.
6) Courier contract to LS mission, cannot activate gate without mission item.
7) On entry to LS immediate scram 2 NPCs w/ slow attack, Explanation on how to deal with scram burn back to gate buy appropriate item on market (guns, stabs or etc). Option for ship to die. 1 of the NPC's to die to gate guys during the process.
8) Mission to teach newbies about D-scan, how to use etc. Challenge mission to D-Scan that are repeatable for practice.
9) In LS show FW plexing mechanics, 30-60 sec timers faction based on starting faction, pvp allowed. Add suggested fits to some set of hints. LP to buy item to complete mission. This will need tweaking/mechanics to prevent abuse by veteran players getting lols.
9a) optional missions to mine, run missions, and hunt players. To prevent abuse allow only limited # of pvp kills in newbie zone.
10) Missions to cover scram/web, have newbie hold down a large NPC ship for long enough to have an ever larger NPC ship kill it. More flying skills should be required to complete the mission, ie must spiral and keep traversal up (allow for easy and hard mode). Item dropped opens NS gate
11)NS gate should have a docked bubble, newbie will likely die to campers/NPCs explain the bubble and death. Give options for how to avoid death in future, (newbie interdiction null, newbie cloak, newbie, alignment rigs)
12) NS station, give guides/missions on anomalies, and exploration, give mission to probe down wormholes
13a) Have a couple different types of WH's, allow newbies to buy fits that make them almost impossible to kill in any of one of the WH types based on WH effects.

14) Of the wormholes goes to tranquility, player gets to keep Isk but items do not transfer.
14a) Vets can re-enter newbie zone for practice (ESP the challenge stuff) but are in a different instance from true newbies.

A lot of the PVP stuff would have to be balanced against abuse, so not sure how well it would work but that's the basic idea. There is opportunity to have some mini Epic arc through the missions but this would at least get the newbs ready for EVE life.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#540 - 2015-08-16 19:48:15 UTC
i mentioned earlier that one solution to how to distribute the 1-2 mil SP is having corporations distribute it while they are training the rookies with their training programs. but how to approach something like this? i dont know but here is how "NASA's ccp program" works https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=440930&find=unread