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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1521 - 2015-09-08 13:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lucas Kell wrote:


Don't get me wrong though, I fully understand where you're coming from. It would be great if everyone wanted to do all of the heavy PvP stuff in EVE over everything else. But they don't, and treating them like second rate players won't help build the game's population.


Perfect example of the wrong headed thinking that actually created the problem (because CCP thought this same way). You fundamentally don't understand where Tippia is coming from, because where he's coming from is a place of honest analysis of the past.

The highlighted part describes the prejudice (in this case, against pvp) that clouds judgement. It's the same prejudice that gets people saying "you just want me to pvp" when in fact no one gives a crap about how you play. You aren't only fighting against the truth (in this case, the truth being Tip's analysis of the past), your fighting against an imaginary enemy (the evil "everyone must PVP" strawman only people like you created).

Tell me this Lucas Kell. What if you are wrong? What if all your enabling and coddling of the "downtrodden second class citizens" you defend turned out to be the thing that was the problem? What if it was actually you (maybe not you personally, but they way you think, good intentions yes, but bad results)?

What if it was you killing EVE?
Graymin
Doomheim
#1522 - 2015-09-08 13:04:56 UTC
15965 at 13:04 not a good sign.... and 3 of those are me :)
Salvos Rhoska
#1523 - 2015-09-08 13:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
----


Your "opinion" as false, is completely irrelevant to me.

I stand by my original position:

A good start would be to make existing PvE activities involve more player competition and conflict.

This makes it less of a grind and far more interesting and exciting for everyone involved, as well as conducive to player-sourced content creation.

After that, new forms of PvE with new forms of player competition and conflict could be built upon existing systems.

EVE is a PvP environment.
Anything and everything (including PvE) must include substantial degrees of this.
The more the better.

This is what makes EVE the game it is, and defines it on the market.
It is its strongest and longest lasting selling point, and its niche.
Competition and conflict between all players in a shared sandbox.
Everyone vs Everyone.

If people want to grind PvE in a safe environment, there are any number of games they can do so in.
Those are not the market segment which EVE targets, and those other games are systemically better suited towards catering to that kind of player.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1524 - 2015-09-08 13:05:58 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:

Edit: I should add that, if we had more diplomacy options, such as intra-alliance corp war declaration, you might actually get to use your Super Cap Chars after all. Agains other Goon Super Cap players. Which would give you a reason to keep them, and perhaps allow you to enjoy them more.

No that makes no sense, we need to keep them so killing one another is counterproductive. And you know it.


If your goal is to be "productive", then you don't need a videogame for that. With that attitude, you could be out making real money in the real world.

What I want to see is unproductive, but fun, behavior. Tap into peoples' greed. Let corporations inside a large alliance be free to struggle against one another to determine who controls how much of that alliance's territory. Renters would have to pay rent both to the alliance overall (for letting them in the alliance) AND to the corporation within that alliance which controls the system they want to rent.

Another corporation in the same alliance might wardec the corporation they're renting to, and then they'd be caught up in a war.

Quote:

Now the meta is all about things like interceptors, T3 destoyers (kiting), uncatchable T3 cruisers (kiting) and so on


In other words, the meta is really boring to the majority of players, but fun for a small niche group that likes flying an interceptor into someone else's territory to harass them, or use a cheap ship to try and bring down a whale.

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1525 - 2015-09-08 13:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
i don't think PvE for ISK is really the issue. standings requirements and damage from PvE is really a fetter of eve tho.

i don't think there's a good chance of me ever doing L4s for serpentis corporation, and the character i had running FW missions is now scannign holes down in thera and can't pop his head into amarr k-space for too long.

gj getting rid of JC requirements though.

forums.  serious business.

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#1526 - 2015-09-08 13:21:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
A good start would be to make existing PvE activities involve more player competition and conflict.

This makes it less of a grind and far more interesting and exciting for everyone involved, as well as conducive to player-sourced content creation.

After that, new forms of PvE with new forms of player competition and conflict could be built upon existing systems.

EVE is a PvP environment.
Anything and everything (including PvE) must include substantial degrees of this.
The more the better.

This is what makes EVE the game it is, and defines it on the market.
It is its strongest and longest lasting selling point, and its niche.
Competition and conflict between all players in a shared sandbox.
Everyone vs Everyone.

If people want to grind PvE in a safe environment, there are any number of games they can do so in.

Absolutely agree, well said.

The only people who could disagree with these sentiments are the folks who want to run sites completely unchallenged, or mine asteroids completely undisturbed. They enjoy that grind, for no other sake than the distraction of the grind itself and that's fine if you're that kind of tetris-player but at the end of the day it's simply not what EVE is about nor is the universe here set to cater to that kind of player. Whether you're a miner, missioner, hauler, trader, PVPer, highseccer, lowseccer, nullseccer, wormholer - everything you do is intentionally designed to put you onto a plate ready for other players to eat.

And that should be why EVE is exciting, no matter what your creed or trade here.

So bring more PVE content, yes please, because it puts more people at risk (or it should).

If that risk doesn't excite you and all you desire in EVE is to change that balance then you may be playing the wrong game.

Anyway, EVE is dying again? I dunno about everyone else but this year has been amazing for me in EVE.

Granted I don't PVE though, but I have killed a lot of people who do. Pretty sure most™ are still subbed.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1527 - 2015-09-08 13:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Jenn aSide wrote:
This, of course, ticks of the manipulators who want to use any hint of decline to get CCP to 'change course' and save the game, where 'saving the game' conveniently coincides with their very own personal preferences
I agree and disagree with your post, but that is spot on.

I almost posted something like it on pve a little while ago, but meh and went back to index. The point was though, though I like pve, there is already enough of it, and adding more wont improve a thing, just like many other pve games having kept adding more and more and it was never good enough to save their game. Plenty of pve and pvp content/opportunity already, imo EVE just needs more player tools to create content. Better management of what we already have... e.g. like if the new beta map actually does become an improvement, a lot could be done with that.

But yeah, it's obvious, every time one of these threads starts, it's EVE is Dying™ and a list of their demands. One demand if I recall of the OP was making the game safer for industrialists (miners and/or cargo). EVE is Dying™, trust me, now make this game like the other game I got bored of and quit. Better off w/o them.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1528 - 2015-09-08 13:28:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The highlighted part describes the prejudice (in this case, against pvp) that clouds judgement. It's the same prejudice that gets people saying "you just want me to pvp" when in fact no one gives a crap about how you play. You aren't only fighting against the truth (in this case, the truth being Tip's analysis of the past), your fighting against an imaginary enemy (the evil "everyone must PVP" strawman only people like you created).
Of course they care, which is why every post from a PvE player suggesting improvements to their gameplay get filled with posts from players like Tippia telling them that they aren't playing properly and adding caveats to their suggestions the vast majority of which can be summarised as "you must become someone else's easy kill if you want better PvE". All these "hardcore PvPers" sit around going "HTFU" while they sit there on piles of isk they've gather over the years while simultaneously refusing to risk any ships of value. It hardly puts them in a position to look down on people who want to enjoy their part of the game.

And Tippias analysis isn't truth, it's a partial view with massive assumptions being made. All expansions, PvE or not create a boom-bust cycle, that's the nature of fresh marketing. Suggesting that boom-bust is a product of PvE expansions is a fundamental misunderstanding of what drives players to sign up in the first place.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Tell me this Lucas Kell. What if you are wrong? What if all your enabling and coddling of the "downtrodden second class citizens" you defend turned out to be the thing that was the problem? What if it was actually you (maybe not you personally, but they way you think, good intentions yes, but bad results)?

What if it was you killing EVE?
I'm not enabling or coddling anyone, I just don't give a crap if CCP want to milk themeparkers for their cash if it doesn't affect me particularly negatively. I very much doubt that it's players with my line of thinking that are killing EVE. It's a combination of the game having some seriously bad core issues that never get addressed, the elitist attitude given off by the current playerbase and the fact that that existing community is a toxic as they come.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1529 - 2015-09-08 13:30:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Your "opinion" as false, is completely irrelevant to me.
Then we have nothing to discuss as your opinion is also irrelevant to me (since I think fundamentally changing existing mechanics is only good for removing players from the game). That's all any of us have here, our opinions. If you can't have a reasonable discussion then there's no point reading your posts and nothing to be said to you. Good day sir.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1530 - 2015-09-08 13:31:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course it's relevant, because you're saying "PvE expansions are boom-bust", but it's really "expansions are boom-bust".
No, I'm really not. That's just some nonsense you've dreamed up because I refuse to adhere to your assumptions about my position.

Quote:
every post from a PvE player suggesting improvements to their gameplay get filled with posts from players like Tippia telling them that they aren't playing properly
No player like me has ever said anything of the kind. It would be rather self-defeating if we did, don't you think?

Quote:
It's not a magical panacea, no
Good. Case closed.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong though, I fully understand where you're coming from. It would be great if everyone wanted to do all of the heavy PvP stuff in EVE over everything else. But they don't, and treating them like second rate players won't help build the game's population.
So you don't quite get where I'm coming from then… Oy vey.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1531 - 2015-09-08 13:35:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, I'm really not. That's just some nonsense you've dreamed up because I refuse to adhere to your assumptions about my position.
Whatever you say Gevlon.

Like I said before, I'm not being dragged into circular arguments with you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#1532 - 2015-09-08 13:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
By means of example of what I mean about PvE NEEDING PvP forms of competition and conflict,
I submit what happened today:



I arrived at an HS Ice field with my alt.
I discovered upon arrival a russian multiminer surrounding his mining ships with cans.
Yes, even in this day and age, some people still can mine...

I immediately bookmarked the can cluster, and re-shippped into a Miasmos.
Warped back to the field and started running 8mil isk loads of Ice out of the containers as fast and as silently as I could.

After about 4 loads, the multiminer realized what was happening, and on my next arrival, he was there in an Armageddon (lol). Needless to say, barely locked in time, hit me a bit, and I scooted off laughing with yet another 8mil in my hold.

On the 11th run, he had finally brought his freighter and had loaded the remainder of the ice.



Look at how much content this introduction of PvP competition and conflict into another wise mundane and superficial PvE activity created.

THIS is what I mean as the NECESSITY of implementing as much player interaction, competition and conflict as possible into PvE.

It is what makes situations exceptional, creates and enables player content, which inspires and applies risk/excitement from an otherwise tedious, monotone, undynamic and completely unreactive PvE system/encounter.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1533 - 2015-09-08 13:39:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Like I said before, I'm not being dragged into circular arguments with you.

There's nothing circular about it. It's just a cul-de-sac, where every step you take down it is in the wrong direction and yet you keep going because you believe “cul-de-sac” means there will be some free cheese at the other end.
Salvos Rhoska
#1534 - 2015-09-08 13:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Good day sir.

You have already said you do not read my posts.

It takes a hardcore hypocrite to expect others to read or give a damn about your "opinions" when you yourself have already stated that you do not even read the other parties

My cursory glance of your posts suggest the same nonsense and "opinion" as before that actually has no basis in or understanding of the core qualities and character of EVE.

I suspect it will not be long till you leave to play Hello Kitty Online for the safe PvE you so desire.
You've already committed the cardinal sin of expressing out loud that:
Lucas Kell wrote:
EVE died

With that statement, you pretty much eliminated yourself from any due consideration.

Anyone with any dignity who had lost so utterly and miserably as you have in this thread, over and over, would have spared what little pride they had left and exited.

"Good day, sir"

PS: Can I have your stuff?

Its not how many missions there are, those eventually get boring too, and min/maxed.
Its not the "cool flavor text in the mission description" which only a fraction ever read, and even then only once.
Its not the piece of space rock you are staring at.

Lack of OTHER PLAYER competition and conflict is what makes PvE boring and repetitive.
The dynamic interaction of OTHER PLAYERS in competition with you is what makes it interesting.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1535 - 2015-09-08 13:48:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
every post from a PvE player suggesting improvements to their gameplay get filled with posts from players like Tippia telling them that they aren't playing properly
No player like me has ever said anything of the kind. It would be rather self-defeating if we did, don't you think?
Lucas forgets that some of us that primarily partake of, what are seen to be, PvE activities don't subscribe to the common refrains of our fellow PvE players.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#1536 - 2015-09-08 13:49:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
summarised as "you must become someone else's easy kill if you want better PvE". All these "hardcore PvPers" sit around going "HTFU" while they sit there on piles of isk they've gather over the years while simultaneously refusing to risk any ships of value. It hardly puts them in a position to look down on people who want to enjoy their part of the game.

It is a fair point though, risk=reward in almost every aspect of our world here.

You take an Imicus worth a few million to run a C2 relic site, and stand to make about the same ... if you live.

You take a Moros worth billions to run a C5 anom, and stand to about make the same ... if you live.

It becomes easy money when there's little or no risk involved, and then suddenly everyone wants cash in. Only need to look at highsec incursions for an example I suppose. So a risk factor is good, for everyone involved.

Most PVPers aren't that wealthy though (well except Foedus and Mike now, kek). I don't know much outside of wormholes so I'll use Iso for an example - our corp does no organized PVE, so everyone needs to generate their own ISK to PVP. The ships we fight in are generally worth around 1b each, give or take, when we're doing T3s. Each pilot paid for their ships themselves and put them on the line knowing that if it dies they need to login their farming alts and run some anoms, or go do some highsec incursions, suck some more gas or spend a few days station trading again.

If they lose a ship in a fight it can mean days of work to get the money to buy another.

In other words they need to PVE to be able to PVP.

Then there is the other subset of players, those who finance their EVE purely with real money in the form of plex. They can live a PVE-free existence, but by the same token they are still paying a cost for that PVP, just in another context all together. IRL work hours instead of ingame work hours.

The only thing these "PVPers" are doing that's different to "PVEers" is how they're spending the money they make.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1537 - 2015-09-08 13:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course they care, which is why every post from a PvE player suggesting improvements to their gameplay get filled with posts from players like Tippia telling them that they aren't playing properly and adding caveats to their suggestions the vast majority of which can be summarised as "you must become someone else's easy kill if you want better PvE".


I've read almsot every post Tip has posted in this forum for years, and he's never said anyhting like that.

Even if he did, how do yo account for me (and others, like Jonah)? You mistake a person saying "understand the reality you are in" for someone saying "you must play in a way i find acceptable". That's the power of prejudice, it creates those kinds of misinterpertations, and I've beeen a victim of it too. I've had to explain to people "I don't car ehow you play, I'm advising you that being aware of the realites is a smarter move than being oblivious and getting mad after the fact of you ship exploding".

Quote:

All these "hardcore PvPers" sit around going "HTFU" while they sit there on piles of isk they've gather over the years while simultaneously refusing to risk any ships of value. It hardly puts them in a position to look down on people who want to enjoy their part of the game.


Damn, I actually hadn't read this part before right now when I'm quioting it. You PROVE what I'm saying about prejudice.

I'm mainly a PVEr (I consider pvp a mildly entertaining 'cost' of doing business), and I tell people to HTFU, and i risk plenty btw.

Quote:

And Tippias analysis isn't truth, it's a partial view with massive assumptions being made. All expansions, PvE or not create a boom-bust cycle, that's the nature of fresh marketing. Suggesting that boom-bust is a product of PvE expansions is a fundamental misunderstanding of what drives players to sign up in the first place.


Are we about to go another 17 pages before your anger subsides long enough for you to admit that Tip is right and you're wrong again?

Do you see why i always try to point out the error of your ways to you, you keep doing it, over and over. That's your fault, not Tips (and surely not mine).


Quote:

]'m not enabling or coddling anyone, I just don't give a crap if CCP want to milk themeparkers for their cash if it doesn't affect me particularly negatively. I very much doubt that it's players with my line of thinking that are killing EVE. It's a combination of the game having some seriously bad core issues that never get addressed, the elitist attitude given off by the current playerbase and the fact that that existing community is a toxic as they come.


The bolded part is evidence of a deeply selfish way of looking at things. You don't care if CCP makes a good product, you just want them to keep making money so you can keep playing a video game that (according to you) isn't even as fun as Elite:D lol.

And that you doubt that it's your way of thinking killing EVE is no surprise. People rarely understand the flaw in their own motivations. Unfortunately, you've always telegraphed your own motivations. You motivation for more people in EVE (beyond the selfish one I identify above) is that you don't like the EVE community, and you think more people coming to eve will drown out or force out the people you don't like.

I saw that and knew that about you the 1st time I read one of your posts, every post you make (dripping with hatred of your 'enemy') simply confirms what I already know. You have to be able to let go of petty hatred in order to see clearly, and you can't, which is why Tip keeps thumping you....publicly.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1538 - 2015-09-08 13:59:26 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
every post from a PvE player suggesting improvements to their gameplay get filled with posts from players like Tippia telling them that they aren't playing properly
No player like me has ever said anything of the kind. It would be rather self-defeating if we did, don't you think?
Lucas forgets that some of us that primarily partake of, what are seen to be, PvE activities don't subscribe to the common refrains of our fellow PvE players.


+1 And I'd go further, you never hear ANY complaining from most people who PVE in this game. It's the fringe minority of "self-appointed spokespeople" tha tyou do here from.

I don't remember electing Isthanchuck Fazmarai or Lucas Kell to any office, and I really really wish they'd learn to speak for themselves.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1539 - 2015-09-08 14:32:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I suspect it will not be long till you leave to play Hello Kitty Online for the safe PvE you so desire.
I guarantee you will leave this game before, or at the same time that I do.

Hush now. You're too verbose to troll as effectively as you aim to.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lucas forgets that some of us that primarily partake of, what are seen to be, PvE activities don't subscribe to the common refrains of our fellow PvE players.
I don't forget that, I just see the posts get filled with trolls whenever anyone suggests changes to PvE that even hint at the idea of lowered risk.

Erica Dusette wrote:
The only thing these "PVPers" are doing that's different to "PVEers" is how they're spending the money they make.
The point I was making is the main culprits for sitting around going "PvE players should have more risk" are generally the most risk averse PvPers in the game. They want PvE players about as content for them, as targets. People don't want to play a game to be someone else's content though, it's supposed to be entertaining for all players involved. Stomp all over the content provided to those targets and they will move on, leaving you noone to shoot.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1540 - 2015-09-08 14:48:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I don't forget that, I just see the posts get filled with trolls whenever anyone suggests changes to PvE that even hint at the idea of lowered risk.


So your saying that you don't understand why people (including those of us in the actual PVe community) respond negatively to something that is stupid? CCP has been lowering risk for ages (I couldn't bastion my Raven when I started playing...).

Quote:
The point I was making is the main culprits for sitting around going "PvE players should have more risk" are generally the most risk averse PvPers in the game. They want PvE players about as content for them, as targets. People don't want to play a game to be someone else's content though, it's supposed to be entertaining for all players involved. Stomp all over the content provided to those targets and they will move on, leaving you noone to shoot.


I don't understand how anyone could think the above, because it's BS. Especially the bolded part. What you don't get is that the PVPrs are OUR CONTENT (the loot and isk we get from sites are just 'the scoreboard' ie what we use to keep track of how badly we've beaten them, they wanted to kill us, they failed, we made a profit).

You think you are advacating for people, by advocating the nerfing of people you don't like. What you really did was nerf our content, you (ie the coddling enablers including CCP design people who listened to the whiners) took from us the best part of what we were doing: the satisfaction of one upping PVPers in a PVP game while doing nothing more than PVE.

Look in the mirror Lucas Kell, it;s you and your ilk (again, some of whom are part of CCP and instituted all this damn safety crap) responsible for the decline seen among high sec players, not the people you hate. I can't speak for the rest of the pve community since I haven't been elected to anything, but for my part, I honestly wish you would stop trying to help, your help and so called sympathy is not only unwanted, it's detrimental.