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Would it be possible for CCP to make Eve Online free to play?

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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#161 - 2015-09-08 11:51:32 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Last few days since returning I have been getting friends to join me from other games.

All are very excited but as soon as they find out about the training time they get discouraged then they see the subscriptions fees most are great gamers do the calculations and just go this isn't worth my time or effort or money. They actually get angry at CCP saying things like, "what a scam or rip off." I try to warn them before they download it that it is a very different game but the reality doesn't hit them til they start actually playing.

Then I am left with people that are "I will afk train for my trial account and if I dont see anything I like in a few weeks after training I will not play it."

So I have been trying to think of a way for CCP to keep these people, they are good gamers, they are ready to spend money, and are excited about being in a space MMO.

I tell them they could buy characters with isk for plex's most don't want this they want to create a character they feel they started and own, named etc.


Has CCP talked about this at any point as a possibility? If so can I get a link.

go away

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2015-09-08 12:07:22 UTC
Yes, it would be possible, but I am strongly opposed to the idea.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#163 - 2015-09-08 12:34:49 UTC
Verstal wrote:
The content created over the last few years looks like the caving on this stance.
Adding content and reiterating on the existing game is not "selling out", it's maintenance. "Selling out" would be catering to people like your friends that wish to play another type of game entirely.

The Eve formula of appealing to a small niche in the market is successful, and has been for over a decade. Changing to a f2p model, one that has already ruined or killed several games and their respective companies, when they have a successful formula is tantamount to sticking a gun in their mouth and pulling the trigger. The "Eve is dying" meme would become irrevocably true if they decided to do so, and the gaming world would be a lesser place for it.

Quote:
They have lost money and laid off a lot of people over the last few years. They might not have a choice I haven't spoken to them. I did listen to the lead designers interview, read through all the old polygon layoff announcements.

I found it was interesting where his priorities were or what seemed to get him excited but it didn't build confidence in the direction he is taking. CCP seems to be more fragile then ever, makes me sad.

Also sad that another dev team today got shut down with old friends on it today, nothing to do with CCP but hearing that friends are looking for work with families always makes me sad. The real world is much harsher then Eve.
There's this thing known as a global recession going on, people in every industry and in every country have been laid off; CCP are not unique in this regard as evidenced in your final paragraph.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#164 - 2015-09-08 12:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
yeah i could see how this could be done. pay for training time, starter account get free SP etc.

it'd cause a riot tho.

forums.  serious business.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#165 - 2015-09-08 13:21:06 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Funny. When I came to EVE after playing games like EverQuest and Earth & Beyond my response was 'Wait, you mean I don't have to drop sixty bucks for the game, and then thirty every six months on expansions in ADDITION to the monthly fee?!? NEAT!'
The game and content updates are already free, so the monthly subscriptions are a more than reasonable cost to play.

In order for the game to survive as 'free to play', it will become 'pay to win'. Which will kill it.

I'd recommend your friends stop trying to negotiate for more and either take or leave what's offered.


The above bolded part (though true) suggests that Omar is an alien who has never actually met human beings Big smile
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2015-09-08 13:25:58 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Yes, it would be possible, but I am strongly opposed to the idea.



Yeah, the question shouldn't be whether it would be possible, but whether it would be desirable or successful.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#167 - 2015-09-08 13:53:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Funny. When I came to EVE after playing games like EverQuest and Earth & Beyond my response was 'Wait, you mean I don't have to drop sixty bucks for the game, and then thirty every six months on expansions in ADDITION to the monthly fee?!? NEAT!'
The game and content updates are already free, so the monthly subscriptions are a more than reasonable cost to play.

In order for the game to survive as 'free to play', it will become 'pay to win'. Which will kill it.

I'd recommend your friends stop trying to negotiate for more and either take or leave what's offered.


The above bolded part (though true) suggests that Omar is an alien who has never actually met human beings Big smile


Feh. I've met em. Can't say I much liked em. Ugh
I just kind of have issues with a good deal not being good enough for some. Always more and stuff.
Hell, when I was doing the cabbie thing I actually had people try to HAGGLE with me at the end of the ride.Shocked
Experienced EVE players would immediately recognize the look I gave them in response as a yellow box.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#168 - 2015-09-08 14:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:

Yes a game like Dota2 makes 12.5 mil a day, LoL 32mil a day these are world wide numbers.


No they do not - that equates to 4.5 billion USD and 11.6 billion USD annually. Not even close. You overstated these amounts by about 1,800%.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-01-20-league-of-legends-2013-revenue-topped-USD600m-report

Highest revenue game was just shy of 1 billion USD annually.

Edit: additional data - worldwide MMO market for 2014 only 8 billion USD (every MMO). LoL did move to top but still just under 1 billion USD.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/


Sorry have better data its more accurate then what you can find on the web for free, but even our paid for China data isn't considered sound. Also debatable if you want count extra revenue for Cafes where league is played in Korea or China, and or movie theaters they during the World Finals.

Regardless lets say those 'your' numbers are correct, CCP reported a 22mil dollar loss for its last public annual report or it was in a Polygon or some article I read I am not trying to build a case for CCP losses or I would be saving this info.

Found this as I would looking for the 2014 numbers for CCP, Interesting read.

https://www.themittani.com/news/ccp-goes-dark-company-financials

This guys also trying to figure it out.

http://marketsforisk.blogspot.com/p/ccp-half-year-financials-as-published.html

Regardless if it was good news CCP would be beating their chests as they have in the past, they are not.
T' Elk
Strategically Bad
Goonswarm Federation
#169 - 2015-09-08 15:24:24 UTC
Destroy EVE just so your scrub friends want to play it. Excellent idea! /s

~Badposter since FOOOOREEEEEVAAAAAR~ I come back after 2 years to THIS? ~Now 4 years apparently
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2015-09-08 15:35:41 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Yes, it would be possible, but I am strongly opposed to the idea.



Yeah, the question shouldn't be whether it would be possible, but whether it would be desirable or successful.


It really is only a question of financing at the end of the day. If CCP could get the same or better NET revenue (after potentially higher expense to cope with added load of course) then they might do it but I don't know how they could pull that one off.
Gauis Aldent
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#171 - 2015-09-08 15:44:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Has CCP talked about this at any point as a possibility? If so can I get a link.

Yes. They said it's not a possibility because the game doesn't really support it.

Nor does CCP's finances.


Good article, and I agree that it would be a sign of desperation for EvE to go F2P. I expect it will happen some day, and that will be shortly before the end.

What I find interesting is this comment :
Quote:
Lander flashes that grin again. "And if we suddenly want to bring in a ****-load more people, well, we could just do a free-to-play first-person shooter on PlayStation 3."


So, is that what valkyrie is? A related game intended to expose people to the eve universe from the side and drum up interest? How was dust for Eve numbers? Was there cross over from dust into eve?

Maybe Eve could use a couple more in universe (whether live like Dust or just an offline representation, I am not sure matters entirely) that could drum up interest? Hell, maybe a few storyline games centering around the lives of baseliners in the eve universe.... mix in a little lore, make a good story.... have people saying "You know theres another game where you get to actually BE a capsuleer"

That, I think, would be the best way to integrate F2P elements.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#172 - 2015-09-08 15:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Yes, it would be possible, but I am strongly opposed to the idea.



Yeah, the question shouldn't be whether it would be possible, but whether it would be desirable or successful.


I am confident in my ability to design a system that would be desirable and profitable for the current player base following CCP current content pattern.

My goal is to prevent new players from running away from the game and giving Eve a chance and get hooked to invest in it like I did 10 years ago.

The percentage of players that are willing to invest after 2-6 months has always been very low using the term New Player Retention or NPR for short I estimate that it has hovered around 5-10% for 2 months and drops below 5% for 6 months, and less then 1% for more then a year.

This is my best guess at this point.

Newer players are the fundamental fuel for an MMO, if you chart entertainment value per dollar over the past 12 years for games and then chart Eve's progress along this curve you can say its stayed flat because they have stuck to the core concepts. Player tolerance for these concept has gone down not up, which is why the player base is declining.

CCP designed a game for very hard core people to enjoy (like me and you) we all love it but this is very fragile since so few players survive the new player experience.

CCP also has always had this issue of players effecting their customers as we are all in sandbox, Expert players can ruin the excitement for Eve very quickly losing that customer forever. This could be customer that would have been willing to spend up to 500-1000 dollars on the product for subscription fees.

You can also make the argument that people paid for the right and ability to take customers away from CCP and that these customers are more loyal and have made up for these losses.

Interesting for me to consider the new player experience in this light for me as I have always tried to create a system that gives all players a fighting chance or level playing field and the ability to out play someone using dexterity and game knowledge.

ADD++ Also interesting that CCP has put so much of their companies future in the hands of its own customers. Powerful feeling for a customer but very risky for CCP. You could say Fanfest and the CSM are just extensions of CCP that pay for the right to control this universe.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#173 - 2015-09-08 15:53:54 UTC
your f2p idea is just sh!t, its what happens to failed mmo's, your logic is flawed "your friends have money to spend but dont want to spend on a subscription" everything you have described is a pretty clear and perfect example of a game thats not right for your friends, you just refuse to accept it

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#174 - 2015-09-08 16:31:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
your f2p idea is just sh!t, its what happens to failed mmo's, your logic is flawed "your friends have money to spend but dont want to spend on a subscription" everything you have described is a pretty clear and perfect example of a game thats not right for your friends, you just refuse to accept it


Its not just my friends / co workers it like 99.99% of the game playing population. :-) I do understand the pattern you speak too many games have gone free to play and have been ruined.

Just so you know my personal feeling is that I would rather see Eve die then ruin the current game by large scale changes.

The largest player controlled orgs are goons, brave, red/blue combined, and test all these orgs have teams of people that work very hard to create game play for CCP / Eve giving players a wealth of knowledge to help them play.

They have all created tools to manage these player orgs which is amazing to me, you could say these current top teams are more powerful then the fiction than CCP has create over the years.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#175 - 2015-09-08 16:31:15 UTC
I did not read this all, way too much but a few things to note:

1) The 90m loss is not really a loss, people keep thinking it is, but its a write off of money already spent over the years on code they did not use for tax poruposes.

2) layoffs are normal

3) Yes eve seems to be down players, welcome to a repair and rebuild phase. You will lose customers as you attempt to repair and then build on the new repairs. will things tablize and grow? time will tell

4) no eve doesn;t need to be free to play. this idea is stupid,

That should cover it

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#176 - 2015-09-08 19:15:36 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
your f2p idea is just sh!t, its what happens to failed mmo's, your logic is flawed "your friends have money to spend but dont want to spend on a subscription" everything you have described is a pretty clear and perfect example of a game thats not right for your friends, you just refuse to accept it


Its not just my friends / co workers it like 99.99% of the game playing population. :-) I do understand the pattern you speak too many games have gone free to play and have been ruined.

Just so you know my personal feeling is that I would rather see Eve die then ruin the current game by large scale changes.

The largest player controlled orgs are goons, brave, red/blue combined, and test all these orgs have teams of people that work very hard to create game play for CCP / Eve giving players a wealth of knowledge to help them play.

They have all created tools to manage these player orgs which is amazing to me, you could say these current top teams are more powerful then the fiction than CCP has create over the years.


99.9% of the gameplaying population? where did you even get that statistic from?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2015-09-08 19:22:47 UTC
Verstal wrote:
I am confident in my ability to design a system that would be desirable and profitable for the current player base following CCP current content pattern.


CCP should hire you. You seem very knowledgable and capable.

When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2015-09-08 19:23:34 UTC
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:
Verstal wrote:
I am confident in my ability to design a system that would be desirable and profitable for the current player base following CCP current content pattern.


CCP should hire you. You seem very knowledgable and capable.


Wait, no they shouldn't and no you don't.

When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#179 - 2015-09-08 19:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lex Gabinia
Verstal wrote:
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:

Yes a game like Dota2 makes 12.5 mil a day, LoL 32mil a day these are world wide numbers.


No they do not - that equates to 4.5 billion USD and 11.6 billion USD annually. Not even close. You overstated these amounts by about 1,800%.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-01-20-league-of-legends-2013-revenue-topped-USD600m-report

Highest revenue game was just shy of 1 billion USD annually.

Edit: additional data - worldwide MMO market for 2014 only 8 billion USD (every MMO). LoL did move to top but still just under 1 billion USD.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/


Sorry have better data its more accurate then what you can find on the web for free, but even our paid for China data isn't considered sound. Also debatable if you want count extra revenue for Cafes where league is played in Korea or China, and or movie theaters they during the World Finals.

Regardless lets say those 'your' numbers are correct, CCP reported a 22mil dollar loss for its last public annual report or it was in a Polygon or some article I read I am not trying to build a case for CCP losses or I would be saving this info.

Found this as I would looking for the 2014 numbers for CCP, Interesting read.

https://www.themittani.com/news/ccp-goes-dark-company-financials

This guys also trying to figure it out.

http://marketsforisk.blogspot.com/p/ccp-half-year-financials-as-published.html

Regardless if it was good news CCP would be beating their chests as they have in the past, they are not.



This has nothing to with my point. You claimed that other f2p games were generating revenues of over 4 billion and 11 billion USD respectively when the ENTIRE MMO gaming revenue worldwide is pegged at about 8 billion USD. And they are not "my" numbers they are from reputable gaming and tech news sources as opposed to some "guy also trying to figure it out."

If you have this "better data" than what is available from gaming companies announced figures then I suggest you share it. What possible reason would a company have to underreport their income by billions of USD? If they did then I am certain that the taxing authority of their home country would like to have a chat with them.

Quit acting like you know so much. Prove it or just admit that you pulled the numbers out of thin air.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#180 - 2015-09-08 19:41:55 UTC
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:
Verstal wrote:
I am confident in my ability to design a system that would be desirable and profitable for the current player base following CCP current content pattern.


CCP should hire you. You seem very knowledgable and capable.


Wait, no they shouldn't and no you don't.


Move to Iceland? I can't do that sorry. Iceland is very pretty, but to far from all the talent you need to make a top tier game and already on a great team. Maybe UK or Germany if they had offices.