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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1461 - 2015-09-06 22:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
So long as you are always forced to choose between staying blue and going Awox or leaving the alliance entirely, the perfect unity of the mega alliances will always be unbreakable.

Add more choices and things might get more chaotic, and we might start seeing interesting results.

Perhaps a few subfactions might emerge among the Goons who conspire to overthrow the overlords? Or break off and become their own swarms? They might even ally with an outside alliance to achieve their goals.

Then outside alliances would be relevant again.

Yeah that's what they said about siphons.



I actually found an old thread about them here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=295140


If increased diplomacy options didn't break them outright (and it probably wouldn't), it would still make the game more interesting.

The Mafia doesn't break up due to the ability of smaller gangs inside the mafia to go to war with each other. That feature does weaken it slightly. But more important than that: it makes their situation interesting!!!!

If your corporation gets accepted into the Goon alliance, the null game is over for you. I mean, it's not over in a bad way exactly. It's over because you've won!!!! You're now part of the winning alliance!! They should roll credits or something, because you've beaten the game of Eve once and for all.

But if there were more diplomacy options, then joining the Goons wouldn't be the end. Now you've still got to worry about another corporation in the alliance war dec'ing you. Even if you were one of the top ones in the alliance with a lot of 100 mil sp players, a combination of smaller corps within the alliance might gather and war dec, just to overthrow you or take some of your territory.

If goons can fight goons, null will stay interesting forever.

The trouble with superalliances right now is it creates a situation that is too safe. And you're never supposed to be too safe in Eve. That's the game's appeal.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1462 - 2015-09-07 01:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
I guess the word is "power struggle". It would be great if the super alliances were capable of having internal power struggles.


Somewhat similar in a way to what we see in the empires. Like the Khanid breaking off from the Amarr, and then all kinds of internal and external intrigue over who rules what, where, when and how. But among groups that all consider themselves part of the Amarr empire.

Huge alliances should be like that. It shouldn't be as simple as going blue, and then they're permanently friended, and everybody in the alliance joins hands with every other member of the alliance and sings "Kumbaya"
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1463 - 2015-09-07 02:52:59 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
I guess the word is "power struggle". It would be great if the super alliances were capable of having internal power struggles.


Somewhat similar in a way to what we see in the empires. Like the Khanid breaking off from the Amarr, and then all kinds of internal and external intrigue over who rules what, where, when and how. But among groups that all consider themselves part of the Amarr empire.

Huge alliances should be like that. It shouldn't be as simple as going blue, and then they're permanently friended, and everybody in the alliance joins hands with every other member of the alliance and sings "Kumbaya"

This already happens. Look at what just happened with Black Legion.
The only thing keeping us (in The Imperium) from shooting each other, is not wanting to shoot each other. Setting someone to blue doesn't mean that my guns suddenly don't work on them. If some charismatic guy, with enough pull with the players , wanted to start an uprising against Mittens and our current directorate, the only thing stopping them would be, well, them. Oh, and that whole getting utterly annihilated by those who like the current leadership thing.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1464 - 2015-09-07 04:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zozoll Neblyn
Are you really trying to suggest that adding options would be a bad thing for a sandbox MMO?

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

The only thing keeping us (in The Imperium) from shooting each other, is not wanting to shoot each other. Setting someone to blue doesn't mean that my guns suddenly don't work on them.


It means the killboards will show blue on blue. Which really screws up a corporation's reputation.

Quote:
If some charismatic guy, with enough pull with the players , wanted to start an uprising against Mittens and our current directorate, the only thing stopping them would be, well, them. Oh, and that whole getting utterly annihilated by those who like the current leadership thing.


And dropping alliance so you can form another alliance, so your people will know who to shoot and who not to shoot. (Unless you think the whole thing will be over in one day or something, so it suffices to simply form a fleet of Awoxers - who will have Awoxing on their reputation from then on)

Getting them all to make a leap they can't (very likely) ever go back from (unless you think the main alliance would take them back afterward), and do so all at once so Mittens doesn't see it happening early enough to take action.

It might be possible, but it would certainly be clumbsy, and a pain to pull off.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1465 - 2015-09-07 04:11:52 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
It means the killboards will show blue on blue. Which really screws up a corporation's reputation.

Yeah Goons better be careful. They have to protect their reputation after all.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1466 - 2015-09-07 04:17:52 UTC
Sorry about that. I edited something before I saw you'd posted.


Individual goons who ever plan to do anything else with their charcters probably should avoid Awoxing, yes.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1467 - 2015-09-07 04:32:16 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Are you really trying to suggest that adding options would be a bad thing for a sandbox MMO?

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

The only thing keeping us (in The Imperium) from shooting each other, is not wanting to shoot each other. Setting someone to blue doesn't mean that my guns suddenly don't work on them.


It means the killboards will show blue on blue. Which really screws up a corporation's reputation.

Quote:
If some charismatic guy, with enough pull with the players , wanted to start an uprising against Mittens and our current directorate, the only thing stopping them would be, well, them. Oh, and that whole getting utterly annihilated by those who like the current leadership thing.


And dropping alliance so you can form another alliance, so your people will know who to shoot and who not to shoot. (Unless you think the whole thing will be over in one day or something, so it suffices to simply form a fleet of Awoxers - who will have Awoxing on their reputation from then on)

Getting them all to make a leap they can't (very likely) ever go back from (unless you think the main alliance would take them back afterward), and do so all at once so Mittens doesn't see it happening early enough to take action.

It might be possible, but it would certainly be clumbsy, and a pain to pull off.


Don't goons(and heck CFC/imperium) have a day where they shoot blues like it's some kind of national holiday? I even remember one of the FC's getting podded by his fleet members after kicking another blue fleet's ass and then subsequently losing FC V or something like that.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1468 - 2015-09-07 11:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Jsut a new piece of data:

Average accounts per player, as provided by CCP Quant

I guess everyone would expect to see a dip in average accounts per player since players are consolidating their accounts by moving alts to their main accounts for multiple character training. Also, the amount of accounts closed by multiboxers after the banning of input broadcasting should have an impact on the average accounts per player.

Both are common theories on why PCU is low in 2015 (same players, but they have less accounts), and now these theories are denied by how average accounts per player isn't dwindling, rather it keeps increasing.

Over time, players have more accounts per player. And yet PCU is lower. Maybe, you know, the reason is that less players play the game...?

That's not totally bad in itself: we can argue easily that players are giving more money to CCP so the dip in player activity doesn't equates a similar dip in company revenue.

Where things get murky is on "why" people give money to CCP. CCP is delaying/bypassing the attention to the vast majority who aren't well retained and they're focusing on highly retentive activities which are being hurt since less an less people play. Meanwhile the elephant in the room (most people pay CCP to play the game in wrong ways) looms on the future of the game as that people are not just being let to go, but EVE's ability to attract them is dwindling and facing competition.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#1469 - 2015-09-07 11:38:20 UTC
This is what happens when a company achieves success by accident. CCP didn't build a great game, the players made it so. And without the players this game loses its appeal, mainly because CCP does not know how to create content.

Ship skins, yes. Content, no.

Another hallmark of accidental success is how they spent their money. Instead of reinvesting in the core product they decided to throw it at a myriad of projects. All of which failed. Horribly.

Meanwhile the people at the wheel are convinced they still know what is best for EvE. But as long as they are still in business there is always hope. But it will require they suck it up and realize CCP does not know what is best for EvE. They need new fresh ideas and those won't come from their 4 walls, too many sycophants and kiss ups. And no it doesn't need to imitate any other game. It needs to become something new and fresh.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1470 - 2015-09-07 11:57:24 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
This is what happens when a company achieves success by accident. CCP didn't build a great game, the players made it so. And without the players this game loses its appeal, mainly because CCP does not know how to create content.

Ship skins, yes. Content, no.

Another hallmark of accidental success is how they spent their money. Instead of reinvesting in the core product they decided to throw it at a myriad of projects. All of which failed. Horribly.

Meanwhile the people at the wheel are convinced they still know what is best for EvE. But as long as they are still in business there is always hope. But it will require they suck it up and realize CCP does not know what is best for EvE. They need new fresh ideas and those won't come from their 4 walls, too many sycophants and kiss ups. And no it doesn't need to imitate any other game. It needs to become something new and fresh.



Don't blame CCP that instead of people enduring getting blue balled and blobbed they decided to join up.

Isn't that what all you Nullbears wanted, people to come join you in Null?


Oh, you expected players to come and be your play toy.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#1471 - 2015-09-07 12:00:34 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Both are common theories on why PCU is low in 2015 (same players, but they have less accounts), and now these theories are denied by how average accounts per player isn't dwindling, rather it keeps increasing.


What is even more funny, is that number of PvP kills is not going down. So less players with more alts create same PvP content?... Something tells me, that this alt count chart you posted is a rabbish. Cause it is hard to distinguish who is whos alt. Even sharing same IP address is not a good criteria, IMHO.

But pure PvP kills count stats are math, and they shows different picture.

Quote:

1. Decline in numbers of online players does not mean decline in number of fights. High PLEX price simply switched off more alt accounts, than multy boxers hammer itself.

2. EvE is PVP game? Yes, but it is the worst MMO PvP game currently on the market. So newbies go away pretty quick.
2.1. Eve solo PvP means longer waiting time, tens of minutes of boredrom before you get fight . In extreme cases even hours of browsing empty null till you find equal or weaker opponent for you SOLO fight.
2.2. Eve team PvP mean longer waiting time till your team is ready and aligned and enemy team is ready and aligned or someone happens to run into your lovely gank. Wait, wait, wait...
2.3. Apart from FW you have no way to ensure any kind of fair fight. It is very unlikely to fight T3 cruiser with your destroyer and win. Plenty of other MMO offer some form of match making.

3. EvE is not for free. War thunder, Wargaming etc... offer almost instant PvP with good matchmaking for free.

4. EvE really sucks in advertising. World of tanks jumps on you from TV, EvE is not visible even in google ads.

5. With all great potential of perfect Sci-fi world EvE PvE conent is repetitive and ... let say limited. What is the problem of adding more L4 missions? COSMOS? Epic archs? Stats shows, that most newbie players try PvE before PvP and try it hard. So make PvE interesting for them so they stay and get involved into team PvP later on.

Cause EvE is good in team PvP.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1472 - 2015-09-07 12:40:18 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Both are common theories on why PCU is low in 2015 (same players, but they have less accounts), and now these theories are denied by how average accounts per player isn't dwindling, rather it keeps increasing.


What is even more funny, is that number of PvP kills is not going down. So less players with more alts create same PvP content?... Something tells me, that this alt count chart you posted is a rabbish. Cause it is hard to distinguish who is whos alt. Even sharing same IP address is not a good criteria, IMHO.

But pure PvP kills count stats are math, and they shows different picture.

Quote:

1. Decline in numbers of online players does not mean decline in number of fights. High PLEX price simply switched off more alt accounts, than multy boxers hammer itself.

2. EvE is PVP game? Yes, but it is the worst MMO PvP game currently on the market. So newbies go away pretty quick.
2.1. Eve solo PvP means longer waiting time, tens of minutes of boredrom before you get fight . In extreme cases even hours of browsing empty null till you find equal or weaker opponent for you SOLO fight.
2.2. Eve team PvP mean longer waiting time till your team is ready and aligned and enemy team is ready and aligned or someone happens to run into your lovely gank. Wait, wait, wait...
2.3. Apart from FW you have no way to ensure any kind of fair fight. It is very unlikely to fight T3 cruiser with your destroyer and win. Plenty of other MMO offer some form of match making.

3. EvE is not for free. War thunder, Wargaming etc... offer almost instant PvP with good matchmaking for free.

4. EvE really sucks in advertising. World of tanks jumps on you from TV, EvE is not visible even in google ads.

5. With all great potential of perfect Sci-fi world EvE PvE conent is repetitive and ... let say limited. What is the problem of adding more L4 missions? COSMOS? Epic archs? Stats shows, that most newbie players try PvE before PvP and try it hard. So make PvE interesting for them so they stay and get involved into team PvP later on.

Cause EvE is good in team PvP.



Quants numbers are accurate, as accurate as any of us could ever hope to get with the data available.

PVP numbers are not dropping because PVP players aren't the ones leaving. Fozzie said it earlier this year, the drop in players is exclusively High Sec and he even hinted at PVE types. The multi-box changes, the stale PVE content, the advent of another big PVE type space game are causing the number drops.

Now that FuzSov is here, we might start to see PVP numbers drop a lot, in fact I bet capital kills are already down from before July. With that we will see the slow bleed from Null.

So to reiterate, High Sec numbers tanked, Low and Null went up slightly, WH dropped. This results in what we see at DotLan and verbally from interviews with CCP Quant and Fozzie. Killboards show little change, DotLan shows much lower PVE in HighSec... higher PVE in Null.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1473 - 2015-09-07 12:42:34 UTC
Quote:

Cause EvE is good in team PvP.



BvB

Blob vs Blob

Should be Block vs Block, but people can't seem to be asked to open the corporation standings window and change those + to -

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1474 - 2015-09-07 12:47:07 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jsut a new piece of data:

Average accounts per player, as provided by CCP Quant
Neat. Where's that from?
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1475 - 2015-09-07 12:56:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jsut a new piece of data:

Average accounts per player, as provided by CCP Quant
Neat. Where's that from?


Secondary source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6015734#post6015734
Primary source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/cun2q2o


Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1476 - 2015-09-07 13:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
*yawn*

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1477 - 2015-09-07 13:10:36 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
This is what happens when a company achieves success by accident. CCP didn't build a great game, the players made it so. And without the players this game loses its appeal, mainly because CCP does not know how to create content.

Ship skins, yes. Content, no.

Another hallmark of accidental success is how they spent their money. Instead of reinvesting in the core product they decided to throw it at a myriad of projects. All of which failed. Horribly.

Meanwhile the people at the wheel are convinced they still know what is best for EvE. But as long as they are still in business there is always hope. But it will require they suck it up and realize CCP does not know what is best for EvE. They need new fresh ideas and those won't come from their 4 walls, too many sycophants and kiss ups. And no it doesn't need to imitate any other game. It needs to become something new and fresh.


CCP has grown conservative and can't face the ugly realities of the game. Adding a bunch of new missions with each patch would have such impact on PCU that would blow them out of their socks, but also would destroy their complacency.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1478 - 2015-09-07 13:18:51 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jsut a new piece of data:

Average accounts per player, as provided by CCP Quant
Neat. Where's that from?

Secondary source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6015734#post6015734
Primary source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/cun2q2o

If the account/player hasn't budged much over the years, I wonder if the same holds true for the character/account count. Just like how one would expect the accounts per player to go down as more services are added to allow consolidation, one would expect the character per account number to go up. So if the former hasn't budged, has the latter? It's been hovering around 2 for as long as they provided any stats on it at all, and it would be fun to see if it has changed or if it has remained stable too.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1479 - 2015-09-07 13:27:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jsut a new piece of data:

Average accounts per player, as provided by CCP Quant
Neat. Where's that from?

Secondary source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6015734#post6015734
Primary source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/cun2q2o

If the account/player hasn't budged much over the years, I wonder if the same holds true for the character/account count. Just like how one would expect the accounts per player to go down as more services are added to allow consolidation, one would expect the character per account number to go up. So if the former hasn't budged, has the latter? It's been hovering around 2 for as long as they provided any stats on it at all, and it would be fun to see if it has changed or if it has remained stable too.

Anecdotally my experience is it's still two on average.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1480 - 2015-09-07 13:30:12 UTC
This thread still stumbling along...?

Depending upon word play, the number of subscribers will always appear to go up.

Another thought I had on the original subject matter was what I originally enjoyed about Eve - the training system. Since my real life time has become more and more limited over the years, whenever I want a feeling of achieving something, other games will give that ~instant gratification~ over Eve. Begin training a thirty plus day skill and I can _forget_ about Eve for a while. And since I am not interacting with Eve, the desire to achieve more of the same fades. Being an older gamer, I do not need flashy graphics in my games. So a few turns in Alpha Centauri (with the expansion), Master of Magic, or Master of Orion (thanks GOG!), etc. will get me through those limited gaming hours. And if I want to grind once again, playing EverQuest through Project 1999 - while doing more of the same fifteen years ago - "feels" new once again.

So just another reason the numbers might be down overall - people like me are not being lured into the game daily with limited time and reasons for doing so further and further apart.

Just another one of my thoughts.