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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1121 - 2015-09-06 12:08:32 UTC
Rapid missiles are still dominating the meta, we need a rebalance and the missile td modules.

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1122 - 2015-09-06 14:21:09 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Rapid missiles are still dominating the meta, we need a rebalance and the missile td modules.


I dislike the idea of missile TDs.

1) because apart from Rapids, missiles are already the weaker option.

2) Because more MGCs and other modifying options are not powerful enough to ever help counteract.

3) because if scripted to negate missile range, you're being redundant, as they already have too much range to counter, or are close enough for it not to matter. A Raven has more than enough range with any missile system for PVP, yet that range is rarely used. That would basically only work for the alliance tournament.

4) if scripted for application TD, then there's no point in using missiles, as missiles are already too heavily effected by application.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1123 - 2015-09-06 14:45:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Oh and rapid launchers can go into the abyss.

I liked the original RLML and first draft of the RHML.


So did I but now they are trying to make a missile launcher into a machine gun and it only works because of the server ticks. Hashtag temporalmechanics

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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#1124 - 2015-09-06 14:50:59 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Rapid missiles are still dominating the meta, we need a rebalance and the missile td modules.


I dislike the idea of missile TDs.

1) because apart from Rapids, missiles are already the weaker option.

2) Because more MGCs and other modifying options are not powerful enough to ever help counteract.

3) because if scripted to negate missile range, you're being redundant, as they already have too much range to counter, or are close enough for it not to matter. A Raven has more than enough range with any missile system for PVP, yet that range is rarely used. That would basically only work for the alliance tournament.

4) if scripted for application TD, then there's no point in using missiles, as missiles are already too heavily effected by application.


This really.


It be more possible if the new missile mods performed on par with turret TC and TE. This however was something ccp clearly avoided even on sisi with their alterations.

With some turrets I get lots of options. Good hull tracking bonus, tc/te, drop down to smaller bores....I can mitigate to varying levels some TD hits. Missiles lack this.

Rapids "fix"this really by the good old mantra that has been the basis of suppressive fire for years. You shoot lots of rounds down range really fast...something is gonna get hit and hit more often than a slower rate of fire weapon. Does it work? yes. Should it be the basis to nerf slower firing launchers? No.


Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1125 - 2015-09-06 17:27:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I dislike the idea of missile TDs.

Pretty much this.

We already have damps and ECM as counters, in addition to the potential to actually outrun missiles under certain conditions. This doesn't even include smartbombs, Defender missiles and time to impact. While missiles do deliver fixed damage - they also can't hit for critical damage, either. So if the current iteration of MGCs and MGEs are more or less fixed in stone (and I think it's unlikely we'll see any changes at this point), missile TDs will just nerf missiles again.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#1126 - 2015-09-06 19:25:21 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Which is very exciting but doesn't fix heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. The solution is already on the table and nullsec can entosis themselves in the meantime.

Sorry, what's the solution again? Lol


Well, a 5% damage buff certainly isn't it. Keyword is "Application".


It's more than just that.
There's a lot of missile balance that needs to happen, and one of them is a nerf.



9) fix error with fit cost between Cruise Launcher and Torpedo Launcher.

Short range weapon should use less CPU/PG than long range weapon
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1127 - 2015-09-06 19:29:31 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Which is very exciting but doesn't fix heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. The solution is already on the table and nullsec can entosis themselves in the meantime.

Sorry, what's the solution again? Lol


Well, a 5% damage buff certainly isn't it. Keyword is "Application".


It's more than just that.
There's a lot of missile balance that needs to happen, and one of them is a nerf.



9) fix error with fit cost between Cruise Launcher and Torpedo Launcher.

Short range weapon should use less CPU/PG than long range weapon




I agree to that, and have always wondered this.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1128 - 2015-09-07 07:58:10 UTC
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1129 - 2015-09-07 10:32:29 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?

Interesting question.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1130 - 2015-09-07 11:23:28 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?

Interesting question.



The answer is likely yes.. However, it's a open ended question, because it's a pre-determined fleet build which likely had ships for dedicated TPs, even if un-bonused. Also, TPs are stacking penalized.
Which means at a certain number of TPs on a target, 3-4?, localized modifiers become the only viable option.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1131 - 2015-09-07 11:29:25 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?

Interesting question.



The answer is likely yes.. However, it's a open ended question, because it's a pre-determined fleet build which likely had ships for dedicated TPs, even if un-bonused. Also, TPs are stacking penalized.
Which means at a certain number of TPs on a target, 3-4?, localized modifiers become the only viable option.



My money is on no. For various reasons, but I think no...
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1132 - 2015-09-07 11:59:00 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?

Interesting question.



The answer is likely yes.. However, it's a open ended question, because it's a pre-determined fleet build which likely had ships for dedicated TPs, even if un-bonused. Also, TPs are stacking penalized.
Which means at a certain number of TPs on a target, 3-4?, localized modifiers become the only viable option.



My money is on no. For various reasons, but I think no...


You realise you can just load up the system it took place in and look for yourself? It was live on TQ btw.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
3200.
#1133 - 2015-10-19 15:32:23 UTC
Houston we have a problem
The problem of RLM is the explosion signature. Logis mostly armor like oneiros and guardian have low signature radius so they can tank much more dps than other bigger ships as its hard to make a perfect hit with big guns. Even when it gets to a big fleets. And especially when it get to a big fleets that signature is what make them survive if logi pilots are moving in space. Also turret ships can use "look at" button and set a vector of their own movement to make their hits more precise. And thats what make difference between skillfull player and newbie. But now we have just cerberus fleets killing everything cos they dont give a sh... about signature radius lol..
Now numbers. I neve come without them


Cerberus with RLM hit 1500 alpha damage with 2.5 seconds ROF (2.1 overloaded)
Lets take most tanked logi (oneiros) over 70k EHP with bonuses
with a casual number of 15 cerberuses in fleet we kill oneiros with 3-4 hits with 22500 alpha which mean 6-8 seconds overloaded
Now oneiros lock other oneiros in 3.3 seconds (with standard skill bonuse from leadership at lvl5) + 3 seconds for overloaded remote repairers cycle overloaded, and yes +0.5-1.5 seconds to react on broadcast. So what we;ve got? When i lock logi in my fleet it appears to be already dead.

And yes. Lets make new rapid light guns that firing with 600 dps on 70km from turret HACs... with 2.0 tracking.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1134 - 2015-10-19 19:09:55 UTC
For all those claiming RLML / RHML need to go ..... consider that this is exactly one of those things that makes missiles so unique: I can fit a small weapon on a medium sized ship, or a medium-sized weapon on a battleship. I use them for the application they provide.

Especially on non-droneboat hulls, these rapid launchers are the only thing that allow me to pop undersized targets. I wouldn't dismiss them so easily. Would be interested in a "gunship" battleship hull with a dual bonus for medium and large turrets, but for now, a few support launchers are my best bet.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1135 - 2015-10-19 19:42:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So....quick question - RHML were dominant in terms of DPS in the AT - did ANY of those ship losses have the new mods?


https://zkillboard.com/ship/11993/region/10000004/losses

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY