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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#881 - 2015-07-22 19:08:42 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Careful what you say, you might cause Rise to nerf target painters.

I bet he will, because of meaningful choices ofc.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#882 - 2015-07-22 19:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Careful what you say, you might cause Rise to nerf target painters.

I bet he will, because of meaningful choices ofc.


If that is the case, most meaningful choices will be - don't fly missile boats.

We've been down that road before.


Edit...

My suggestion is that CCP get rid of these modules.

Instead, change TPs so that they no longer have a optimal/falloff, but instead have a max range.

The modules will be balanced based off max range, fitting, cap usage, and effectiveness.

Examples:
module - range - effect - cap usage
TP 1 - 75 km - 25% - 10gj
PWN - 40 km - 32% - 16gj
PWNT - 50 km - 28% - 12gj
PWND - 75 km - 26% - 12gj
PWNAGE - 100km - 30% - 14gj
TP 2 - 125km - 30% - 16gj
Inception - 75 km - 23% - 6gj - lowest fitting costs, cap, and lowest bonus but mid range
Domination - 40 km - 35% - 16gj
Republic - 150km - 32% - 18gj

This is just a general guide and in no way represents what they "should" be, but instead a concept.

This gives both short and long range missiles a TP that will aid them best. The shorter the range, the more effect, the more cap/fitting costs.

Now, get rid of the damn MGC and MGE. MGE needs to be gotten rid of regardless, as it sucks.

Now, they could possibly introduce a HIGH SLOT module that buffs range.
Missiles are more like drones than they are turrets, so do like with drones and allow a range mod to be fitted in the HS.
This means certain missile boats will be able to increase range with the HS modules due to ultility highs, but will have to choose between utility and range.
Other missile boats that don't have a free HS are typically used for brawl/kite fits anyway, to which they don't need the addl range.
If CCP wishes to factor this in, then give some more missile boats utility highs.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#883 - 2015-07-23 05:15:37 UTC
Nuked some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#884 - 2015-07-23 07:58:37 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Now, they could possibly introduce a HIGH SLOT module that buffs range.
Missiles are more like drones than they are turrets, so do like with drones and allow a range mod to be fitted in the HS.
This means certain missile boats will be able to increase range with the HS modules due to ultility highs, but will have to choose between utility and range.
Other missile boats that don't have a free HS are typically used for brawl/kite fits anyway, to which they don't need the addl range.
If CCP wishes to factor this in, then give some more missile boats utility highs.

Why everybody want range on missiles? They need time to hit target, the bigger the longer. Delayed damage is huge problem, why eveybody using sentries? Range will push missiles into auxilla dps hulls. This is not straight: I lose some tank but gain some range. They started balance from a** side. They need to differ missiles range / launchers/ ammo. Then introduce new modules, maybe even prenerfed. Then tweaking them.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#885 - 2015-07-23 09:47:04 UTC
if CCP is worried about these modules providing a more substantial bonus than TC and TE's, why not buff TC and TE's? When was the last time you saw a precious mid used for a TC in PVP? TE's and to a smaller degree TC's see some use on auto cannon boats because the falloff bonus is so much greater than the optimal/tracking bonus's. But the overall lackluster projection you get out of them is rarely meaningful enough to drop an extra web, TP or Sebo.

Battleships that have more than 2 lows for damage mods see them as well, but not to an overwhelming amount.

I would rather see all the weapons systems get some love if it means missile damage can finally be meaningful. And the increase in the application we would see for turrets would only serve to bring turrets up to max application a little more often, whereas it might bring missile application up far more proportionally.

I want to add that I have many fits for turret boats, and none of them use application mods. There is a reason for this.
I have many fits for missile boats, ALL of them except my vengeance and hawk fits have application mods. There is a reason for this.

Until the reason for this is dealt with, CCP will continue to see dank turrets and anemic missiles.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#886 - 2015-07-23 09:48:40 UTC
If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#887 - 2015-07-23 10:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Now, they could possibly introduce a HIGH SLOT module that buffs range.
Missiles are more like drones than they are turrets, so do like with drones and allow a range mod to be fitted in the HS.
This means certain missile boats will be able to increase range with the HS modules due to ultility highs, but will have to choose between utility and range.
Other missile boats that don't have a free HS are typically used for brawl/kite fits anyway, to which they don't need the addl range.
If CCP wishes to factor this in, then give some more missile boats utility highs.

Why everybody want range on missiles? They need time to hit target, the bigger the longer. Delayed damage is huge problem, why eveybody using sentries? Range will push missiles into auxilla dps hulls. This is not straight: I lose some tank but gain some range. They started balance from a** side. They need to differ missiles range / launchers/ ammo. Then introduce new modules, maybe even prenerfed. Then tweaking them.


Drop base range on guided missiles, that means they can get buffed to keep "dps vs projection" balanced, replace precision missiles with javelin versions. Just don't touch light missile dps because they're already quite good.

It really isn't difficult and has been stated again and again.


Unguided missiles are doing fine atm.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#888 - 2015-07-23 10:23:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.


Yeah and the upward spiral continues. That is not our intention. That is not my intention. People are always very quick in screaming overpowered but the thing I am being accused of the most is not looking at the big picture but I do.

Whenever this discussion comes up the point of view becomes very narrow and it is all forgotten that missiles are not the only thing that can shoot stuff.

Remember medium railguns used to be a joke for over a decade? Now that railguns do damage people scream overpowered again.
But it was totally fine when minmatar guns were fit on everything with a turret slot for over four years.

That capsuleers were so used to a turret boat and keeping their transversal up while approaching a missiles wasn't giving them the same result it is overpowered all of a sudden. They had much more range with that approach - how dare they?

Oceans later missile application became the running gag that never got old.

I am not talking about damage in hitpoints, I am trying to get application for all my fellow Caldari pilots. Missile damage got increased as "compensation" but the damage wasn't really in question all these years - the application was.

CCP may even decrease the damage of missiles back to 2009 values for all I care but increase the application theirof.

And please for arguments sake, please everyone remember that missiles need to be launched first, then accelerate and fly around for some time to do damage if any.

Any more comparisons with turrets are moot at this point, I heard them all, we heard them all. Go ahead and take a look, I do use turret boats all the time and yes I really do have 173 million skillpoints to back up my claims about them and other things.

I may still be the carebear that could but I do much more pvp lately (plus the occasional pve to fund new ways to blow up stuff).

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#889 - 2015-07-23 11:02:13 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

Oceans later missile application became the running gag that never got old.


I never got that part. Some three years ago, I started a dedicated missile alt because that comment seemed fishy even back then. Like 2 months in on that toon, missiles struck me as bonkers/OP and I trained for a tengu (since I had the linkalt anyways). So excuse me if my opinions on missiles diverge from yours.

Fighting a turretboat in a sabre, I can get under the guns most of the time. Fighting a HML boat, I just can't. He's not dumb, so he loads precisions and even when you're in a small vessel they do hurt. A lot. Significantly more than the cruiser with OP turrets that just can't apply any damage.

Surely you've also had moments where you've shot down bombers and sabres with a cruise raven that didn't have anything fitted to enhance tracking, show me the 1400mm artillery ship that does the same.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#890 - 2015-07-23 11:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasia en Tilavine
afkalt wrote:
If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.


That makes no sense, how will ISO get made faster when turrets hit rats 100% as is? Is more than 100% application going to magically increase base damage? No.

In pvp, all turrets can hit anything at their optimal regardless of size if the pilot is good at flying, a TC and TE buff would only lower the skill bar for that 100% application if the pilot was willing to fit one. Essentially "pvp flight assist". Whereas on missile ships, there is no flying the pilot can do to improve damage, meaning application mods are damage mods. Only affecting certain areas of the damage curve as it applies to smaller and faster targets. MGE's are direct competitors to ballistic controls with the added benefit of range increase. They have to be competitive in that sense, and the MGC is a midslot damage mod that reduces tank/utility. It has to be valued against those things in terms of value.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#891 - 2015-07-23 11:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Consider things like machariels, vargurs - they fight in falloff. Extending range makes more DPS.

Blaster boats are in a similar position: More range means short range high DPS ammo gains engagement range.

See also: Dreads in cap escalations with even more tracking.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#892 - 2015-07-23 12:24:39 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Unguided missiles are doing fine atm.

and maybe it's time to remove guided-unguided names because they are both guided for short/long range. There are no unguided missiles in this game (bombs maybe).

Lloyd Roses wrote:
Fighting a turretboat in a sabre, I can get under the guns most of the time. Fighting a HML boat, I just can't. He's not dumb, so he loads precisions and even when you're in a small vessel they do hurt. A lot. Significantly more than the cruiser with OP turrets that just can't apply any damage.

and I have problems to kill astero with my drake (precisions, full flight of drones in blackhole) What does that prove? Astero is OP or Sabre has weak tank? Depends on fit I guess.

Maybe we need different approach here, which hulls would be OP if modules hit TQ without nerfs?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#893 - 2015-07-23 12:42:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Consider things like machariels, vargurs - they fight in falloff. Extending range makes more DPS.

Blaster boats are in a similar position: More range means short range high DPS ammo gains engagement range.

See also: Dreads in cap escalations with even more tracking.



Fighting in buffed falloff is exactly what I said. It's a module assisting your piloting, range can be drawn in as well as pointing your ship and controlling your speed and alignment to improve that damage just like the TC allows you to do that easier and at greater ranges. It does not improve your damage. The TC only makes that easier.

When application is subpar with turrets, fly better.
When application is subpar with missiles, cry.

Getting something we apply good piloting to to improve missile damage variably with skill, would be amazing.


And cap escalations are already min maxed and broken income. They are a whole separate issue.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#894 - 2015-07-23 12:53:42 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:



Unguided missiles are doing fine atm.



Torps aren't doing fine.

They're working on stealth bombers a ship that aside from being able to Cloak, move and align at frigate speed needs:

10% bonus on explosion radius and explosion velocity a level
20% bonus on missile velocity a level
and
15% damage a level

to let them be good.



Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#895 - 2015-07-23 13:24:04 UTC
People used to claim that if CCP buffed missile velocity and reduced flight time, so that missiles went faster to the same range, that it would break mechanics.

This has been disproved by the Mordus Legion ships.

The Barghest is a better example to use as the kiting capability of the other two is OP.

CCP can easily double missile velocity and half flight time, which would make missiles much more effective in PVP.
It would also means we don't have 3 flights of missiles out at once, which is annoying as hell.

This won't fix application issues, but it will fix time on target and make ranged missile fits viable outside of large fleet combat.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#896 - 2015-07-23 14:30:24 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
-shortened-
Surely you've also had moments where you've shot down bombers and sabres with a cruise raven that didn't have anything fitted to enhance tracking, show me the 1400mm artillery ship that does the same.


If I may be so bold and talk about a ship that I have never flown and have no plan on flying it, the tornado. If I am not mistaken you can fit the 1400mm artilleries on it.
Now when you fly a turret boat with long range guns, you want to be as mobile as possible and you want to be at range away from your target.
You also want to fly in the opposite direction of where your target is which greatly improves your damage application. Your target my know this but let's say it is too slow to keep up.

From hereon out it becomes an angles game. Imagine your ship at a dot in space and your target as another dot in space. Your target maybe slower and mostly likely able to kill the tornado but it is too slow to keep up but it still tries.

Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track.
In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage.

From my experience with lasers and railguns I strongly believe you will fit tracking enhancers on that tornado but even if you don't and have 2 nanos on and manage to keep your distance and angle in a good position (rapidly clicking in space like a mad girl) to correct your angles while you hammer your target down.

Now humans are a prime example of training habits and keeping them and while it is possible to fly in a way to not get hit and under your guns it is usually bad to try the same with missile ships.
The only thing that will happen is that the missile range will increase and everything is op.

Instead of flying away and warping to a better position they keep trying the very same thing they should already know will have the same result every time.


Back in the day when missiles had 100% application missiles where balanced by the fact that you can shoot them down, no weapon grouping and smaller ships could outrun the missile velocity until the flighttime ran out.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#897 - 2015-07-23 14:56:56 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
People used to claim that if CCP buffed missile velocity and reduced flight time, so that missiles went faster to the same range, that it would break mechanics.

This has been disproved by the Mordus Legion ships.

The Barghest is a better example to use as the kiting capability of the other two is OP.

CCP can easily double missile velocity and half flight time, which would make missiles much more effective in PVP.
It would also means we don't have 3 flights of missiles out at once, which is annoying as hell.

This won't fix application issues, but it will fix time on target and make ranged missile fits viable outside of large fleet combat.



The thing is though, when it comes to range, LR missiles have LR turrets beat every time. Also, the fact is that missile boats don't have to worry about tracking. Just application. This is a big deal as it means, if it ever happened, When a HML Drake fleet squares off against a Railgun Ferox fleet, the Drake fleet could go into point blank range and deal the same dps as it would at max range. The Ferox fleet however will find tracking at point blank range extremely difficult.

This is the tradeoff with missile flight time. It's a balancing factor.

Instant damage is extremely useful in game which almost relegates missile DPS as secondary. However, nothing can comete with a Cruise Raven for damage projection however 10 seconds for those missiles to reach 100km range is frustrating.

I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#898 - 2015-07-23 15:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Spugg Galdon wrote:

The thing is though, when it comes to range, LR missiles have LR turrets beat every time. Also, the fact is that missile boats don't have to worry about tracking. Just application. This is a big deal as it means, if it ever happened, When a HML Drake fleet squares off against a Railgun Ferox fleet, the Drake fleet could go into point blank range and deal the same dps as it would at max range. The Ferox fleet however will find tracking at point blank range extremely difficult.

This is the tradeoff with missile flight time. It's a balancing factor.

Instant damage is extremely useful in game which almost relegates missile DPS as secondary. However, nothing can comete with a Cruise Raven for damage projection however 10 seconds for those missiles to reach 100km range is frustrating.

I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform


See, here's the problem with that Concept.
Missiles do have the best damage at long range, but no one uses them at long range, unless in a fleet fight where the target is already locked down.
That said, it's still preferred that you bring a long range turret boat for instant application because no one wants to wait for missiles to arrive.
You can lose part of your fleet before the first missile volley even hits the target, in some cases.

However, long range fights aren't too common due to your mentioned reduced DPS concern.
This puts your targets in close range, where turrets will always out DPS missiles, and you're typically locked down enough to where tracking isn't an issue.

This is why kite missile fits are typically the only used options for missiles, unless you're going in your face HAMs.
I think even most frigs will use lights over rockets, and same is the case for destroyers.
In the case of cruisers, HMLs suck so bad that cruisers typically always fit rapid lights.

Buffing missile velocity at the cost of flight time doesn't increase application, but instead decreases time to target, which will help to make long range missile systems (apart from lights) actually used.
The only time I ever really see cruise missiles being used in PVP is at the Alliance tournament, but even then they're out shined by turret boats.
Matt Faithbringer
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#899 - 2015-07-23 15:14:14 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
...but instead decreases time to target


FTFY
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#900 - 2015-07-23 15:18:15 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform


Logi invalidates it, basically. Unless each volley will alpha a target off field, it's otherwise impossible to target swap effectively.

If you ARE alphaing things, the massive delay between redbox and impact means they could even warp off to a tactical, should the so choose.

And the thing is, if you have that many raven pilots, you're better off in turret boats like NApocs. You'll still alpha everything, without the travel time and all the bad stuff it brings with it.

And as the guy above me points out, if you die with missiles in flight, they disappear.