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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#941 - 2015-09-01 20:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is why I always call you a liar. Edit, thought I add the plain English you ignored in order to lie:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Responsible people rarely get victimized.
I know what I wrote, everyone can read what I wrote, everyone else except you understood what I wrote. Instead of thinking "maybe I read that wrong, maybe I misunderstood", you pretend that I said or meant something I didn't. People without the screwed up 'filters' you have understand that I never even suggested that people can be 100% free of crime or evil in the real world (just like in EVE you can't be 100% safe in space no matter what you do).

And then you will wonder at and act surprised at why I think you're not a very good person. Your posting does not suggest an honest man.
Except that's not your original post, is it. Your original post stated that you can simply opt to not be a victim and not have to worry about it. You don't think I'm a very good person because you take a game far too seriously and feel the desperate need to launch personal attacks at everyone. Hell, this entire branch of the conversation is only happening because someone said they don't like a part of the game are leaving and you chose to attack them over it. Grow up.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Throth
Doomheim
#942 - 2015-09-01 20:07:27 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483


How about 2003?

The first devblog referring to police and CONCORD punishing players in empire space is dated June 7, 2003, a month after the servers opened: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/concord-deploys-special-ops/

Let me quote the whole post so we can all take a trip down memory lane:

Quote:

CONCORD deploys Special Ops
2003-06-07 22:39 By CCP Hellmar
Just a word of warning to the ones that want to make a name for themselves in the world of EVE. Empire controlled space, means that the space is controlled by the empires. If the police are not cutting it against players riding an obviously imbalanced module combination, reinforcements will be called, be it special NPCs or GM controlled NPCs (special-ops).

Do as you please in non-empire space but please don’t complain when the empires take action against you in their space, when you are obviously violating their rules.

The actions taken today were with in the rules of the game, the ships being used are ships in the game. The empires have ample resources to manufacture them and the pilots controlling then have up to 3+ years experience flying EVE vessels.

If you want to role-play a pirate corp., this is the environment we provide. The only thing we are guilty of is not communicating this clearly enough but in this case everyone involved had a chance to evacuated empire space before "the four" hit them.


What does this post have anything to do with suicide ganking or abuse of mechanics? It doesn't say anything at all specifically. I like how the fan boys run to this as evidence but don't actually read it. It's a warning that Concord will pop anyone that aggresses in high sec, and that they have to go to low sec if they want to play pirate. Read the actual quote you posted lol.
Salvos Rhoska
#943 - 2015-09-01 20:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Update on the issue of CONCORD evasion as related to some in this thread:



Exploit Notification - Delaying CONCORD Response
2015-09-01 16:45 By CCP Falcon

We would like to inform players that distracting CONCORD by jettisoning ships into space to distract them from attacking the perpetrator of a criminal act is now considered an exploit.

As of the date and time stamp of this message, this practice is now considered an abuse of the criminal flagging system, and will be actioned as an exploit under our suspension and ban policy.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-delaying-concord-response/
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#944 - 2015-09-01 20:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Uhhh wut?
Is that hyperdunking or just something similar? It reads like it's something different to be honest.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Britney Fears
EVE Corporation 98582134
#945 - 2015-09-01 20:11:57 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Update on the issue of CONCORD evasion as related to some in this thread:



Exploit Notification - Delaying CONCORD Response
2015-09-01 16:45 By CCP Falcon

We would like to inform players that distracting CONCORD by jettisoning ships into space to distract them from attacking the perpetrator of a criminal act is now considered an exploit.

As of the date and time stamp of this message, this practice is now considered an abuse of the criminal flagging system, and will be actioned as an exploit under our suspension and ban policy.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-delaying-concord-response/



Wow momma
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#946 - 2015-09-01 20:14:21 UTC
Time to adapt.
Britney Fears
EVE Corporation 98582134
#947 - 2015-09-01 20:15:06 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Uhhh wut?
Is that hyperdunking or just something similar? It reads like it's something different to be honest.



It bans hyperdunking in a way, but in essence it is more a nerf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#948 - 2015-09-01 20:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Throth wrote:
What does this post have anything to do with suicide ganking or abuse of mechanics?
You realise that they're explaining that engaging in criminal activity can and will get you blown up, yes? You know, making ganking something of a suicide — quite some time before when you insinuated that it started to appear.

You also realise that, at the same time, this shows a much more lackadaisical attitude towards player aggression than what's in place today, yes? Again, quite in opposition to the development you've suggested.

Just face it: your blustering about age and experience has failed because you have proven not to have an accurate recollection oor knowledge of what things were like.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Uhhh wut?
Is that hyperdunking or just something similar? It reads like it's something different to be honest.

It's a fairly recent variation that I've only seen a single goon engage in. It's the “superhyperdunking” alluded to earlier (yes, that is indeed what he called it… :cripes:)

Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Time to adapt.

Meh. More a case of time to go back to the original version.
Throth
Doomheim
#949 - 2015-09-01 20:30:25 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483



2004 would like a word with you

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/74718-0/page/1

Edit - interesting how many of the replies to that thread are similar to what is said today. Some things never change Lol


Nice try. CCP quickly fixed it in the next expansion. While it happened without my knowledge when I was playing, it wasn't for long, and seemed to only affect the players that hung out in Yulai according to every post I can find searching kamikestrel. While your google skills are strong, I don't see this as being anywhere similar to Hyperdunking, and is still referencing the era where CCP fought against suicide ganks and exploits - not where they started to allow them later.

https://namamai.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/missiles-in-early-eve-and-cruise-missile-kestrels/
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#950 - 2015-09-01 20:33:40 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

But what you're saying is that people should just choose to not be the victim of a crime. Like someone shooting you in the chest or raping you in an alley is something you have the option of avoiding. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that in EVE you can't avoid being hyperdunked, but to suggest that in real life you can simply opt to never be the victim of a crime is a whole new level of stupidity.


You can however choose not to walk through a war torn country with signs brandishing racial slurs or through some slum waving around large amounts of cash....

We are trying to think of eve as a civil and happy place. It isn't Remember this is a system where two whole factions (minmatar and caldari) were driven from their homes under gunpoint. It is a place where racial tensions are deep. It is lawless as you get away from these corps. People commit crimes in eve, and are punished. But if you are out in the hood, might take a bit before the police can respond, if safe to at all.

That said, the punishments for empire crime could be a bit sterner and more lasting.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#951 - 2015-09-01 20:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Throth wrote:
Nice try.
It is, isn't it, especially since it proves you wrong about… oh… almost everything.
It does it so completely that it's not even really a “try” any more, but rather a “success”.

Quote:
While your google skills are strong, I don't see this as being anywhere similar to Hyperdunking
That's because that wasn't the question. What you're doing here is engaging in yet another fallacy called “moving the goalposts”.
Whitehound
#952 - 2015-09-01 20:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Jill Xelitras wrote:
...
How does a limited anonymity factor in the whole thing not being PvP. I could play a shooter or a racing game, where everyone is anonymous. As long as we're competing against each other and not against AI it is PvP.

As for not losing on the market ... that was explained already. No need to see an explosion to lose ISK on the market.

The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. The anonymity is what removes the identification of players. You know there are other players acting on the market, but you do not know who they are or where they are. You then do not think of the lottery as PvP just because you know it has lots of people in it who are all trying to win, do you?

Of course can you throw away your ISKs, trash your ship or lose it to an NPC. The loss alone does not make it PvP. Only when the loss was caused to you by another player is it PvP. If you then did something on the market that caused you a loss is it only self-inflicted (you never really wanted it anyway), but was not caused by another player. You got what you have asked for, which is fair and not a loss.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#953 - 2015-09-01 20:35:57 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Update on the issue of CONCORD evasion as related to some in this thread:



Exploit Notification - Delaying CONCORD Response
2015-09-01 16:45 By CCP Falcon

We would like to inform players that distracting CONCORD by jettisoning ships into space to distract them from attacking the perpetrator of a criminal act is now considered an exploit.

As of the date and time stamp of this message, this practice is now considered an abuse of the criminal flagging system, and will be actioned as an exploit under our suspension and ban policy.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-delaying-concord-response/
Bringing current and relevant info directly quoted from CCP into a thread like this?

Have you no shame, Salvos? I'm petitioning to get you a six hour time out. Use it to think carefully about your attempt to use facts in a troll thread.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#954 - 2015-09-01 20:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. The anonymity is what removes the identification of players.
…which doesn't in any way disqualify it from being PvP. Anonymous or not, they're still players, not AI-controlled entities, so there's still no PvE to compete in or over.

If you want to make a distinction between “competitive PvE” and PvP, it helps if you actually try to include some PvE in the first part.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#955 - 2015-09-01 20:39:26 UTC
Throth wrote:
Odie McCracken wrote:
Throth wrote:
For the nubs that pretend to have been around Eve from the beginning and pretend that suicide ganking was there from the start contrary to what I said, the first Eve post mentioning it was mid 2006 on the old forums - years after I was playing Eve... just like I said.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303483



2004 would like a word with you

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/74718-0/page/1

Edit - interesting how many of the replies to that thread are similar to what is said today. Some things never change Lol


Nice try. CCP quickly fixed it in the next expansion. While it happened without my knowledge when I was playing, it wasn't for long, and seemed to only affect the players that hung out in Yulai according to every post I can find searching kamikestrel. While your google skills are strong, I don't see this as being anywhere similar to Hyperdunking, and is still referencing the era where CCP fought against suicide ganks and exploits - not where they started to allow them later.

https://namamai.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/missiles-in-early-eve-and-cruise-missile-kestrels/


They rebalanced missles in the next expansion, that wasn't to fix suicide kessies. I'll definitely agree that is nowhere near hyperdunking, but then freighters didn't even exist back then.

Once the missles were changed, people switched it up to heavy missle caracals, they adapted. Nowhere in there was CCP trying to curb suicide ganking. They've always allowed it, hell it used to be that you could tank Concord and get away after killing someone in high sec.

Again, my very simple point is that CCP always allowed suicide ganking. I'd say they've been fighting an uphill battle of trying to balance the whiners vs what they see as their vision of their game.

Sure Hyperdunking kicked it up a notch, no argument there. By the look of things that just got hit with a change though having never done it myself I don't know how it will be affected.

Anyway my point, as ever, is that suicide ganking has always and will always be a thing in Eve. It may take many forms, undergo many changes, but at the heart people are still getting blown up in high sec. Cool Cool


Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#956 - 2015-09-01 20:43:39 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Sure Hyperdunking kicked it up a notch, no argument there. By the look of things that just got hit with a change though having never done it myself I don't know how it will be affected.
It won't. What they just outlawed was an evolved version that's designed to cut down on the number of damage ships used (and thus on cost and complexity), and instead sacrifice a crapton of worthless decoys.

Hyperdunking continues as before, and is still an unusually harmless single-player version of the regular fleet-based gank (unusually harmless exactly because and as a direct consequence of the whole single-player bit).
Whitehound
#957 - 2015-09-01 20:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Whitehound]The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. ...

Where is the proof that you have lost or won? Over whom did you win or who made you lose?

I want names, dates and numbers or it did not happen.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#958 - 2015-09-01 20:45:51 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Where is the proof that you have lost or won? Over whom did you win or who made you lose?
At what?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#959 - 2015-09-01 20:46:06 UTC
Britney Fears wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Uhhh wut?
Is that hyperdunking or just something similar? It reads like it's something different to be honest.



It bans hyperdunking in a way, but in essence it is more a nerf

It does not affect hyperdunking. It does ban pre-flooding the grid with ships so that when you go criminal the CONCORD spawns are overwhelmed and take much longer before finally destroying your currently occupied ship. Hyperdunking does not rely on delaying CONCORD in this way, or at all.

Superhyperdunking indeed. I hope Globby spends a little more time before naming his next innovation.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#960 - 2015-09-01 20:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Whitehound wrote:

The point is to make a distinction between competitive PvE and PvP. The anonymity is what removes the identification of players. You know there are other players acting on the market, but you do not know who they are or where they are. You then do not think of the lottery as PvP just because you know it has lots of people in it who are all trying to win, do you?

Of course can you throw away your ISKs, trash your ship or lose it to an NPC. The loss alone does not make it PvP. Only when the loss was caused to you by another player is it PvP. If you then did something on the market that caused you a loss is it only self-inflicted (you never really wanted it anyway), but was not caused by another player.



.... this is still going on? You are misunderstanding competitive pve being indirect.

Indirect competition means that your result has no effect on the other person's attempt. Time trials and such. That is considered Competitive PvE. You are going against the environment. Take said results and compare. Example of Competitive PvE in eve is when me and my buddies would compare bounty ticks. We would run a leader board of who would get the most bounty payout in a tick.

Markets, I change my sell/buy order values, it affects your ability to buy/sell items. I am directly affecting you, one player to another. It is a direct response. I lower my selling price, you stop selling items. Direct response. If you sell elsewhere, you are in a different area is all. Player vs Player. PvP is not restricted to kills and losses. It is simply Player! vs! Player! They are not on isolated environments where the final score is the only thing compared. It is one field, competing for resources.

I really don't know how much more clear it can get? For the rest of you debating it, if it continues, I really say to drop it. Any more debate is an attempt to troll or just the most stubborn ignorance I have encountered.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.