EVE General Discussion

Anyways guys, semantics and definitions aside, back to topic.

Decline in numbers.

They seem to have stabilised somewhat, as has PLEX, since thread began.

I figure focus on the multitraining option would be a good thing at this point.

IE: less accounts (which seems to be the current trend), but still offering more diversity within those remaining fewer accounts.

New accounts have so many equitable options:
-Trial
-Trial + Buddy (Even better)
-Power of 2
-The new "add-on" packs (which btw could use more representation in the account management pages visually and concretely).
-Character purchases

Whereas mulitraining sort of hangs in the shadow, and is also somewhat difficult to find in the account management system. Atm its slightly cheaper to buy PLEX on the discount, and use that to multitrain, rather than multitrain directly with RLM.

Could multitraining, alongside perhaps more ingame usefulness for accounts with multiple toons (in terms of activities that are conducive to cycling through one accounts characters, (manufacture/research/PI/trading especially) rather than the obviously useful ones for having two separate accounts), or perhaps some form of ready beneficial interaction between those toons on the same account?

Maybe even something like a small SP boost to all toons on the account?
Perhaps even a scaling boost x amount of toons being multitrained?
(Im wary of SP boosts, as are you, I know, but just suggesting it as an example of how the imagination is the limit)

Thoughts on incentivising Multitraining?

Seems to me this is an area of the games systems that can realistically be developed in many ways with real benefits to CCP and players.

(PS: Trading is absolutely a PvP endevour in EVE. No question. Even when competing against the NPC buyers/sellers of certain items (like tags, boss chests, skill books) which nominally would be PvE, the dimensions of the game make it PvP when players also stock/trade those in other more remote markets, against other players, as well as liberally spreading buy orders for those in strategic systems. Station trading is a real time, immediate PvP between all traders in that market, as well as their ingenuity in exploiting nearby(or remote) markets for a competetive advantage. Calling EVE trading "PvE", is like calling the real world commodities market "PvE". Makes no goddam sense.)

If you look for the meaning of sandbox game, you get comments like, 'open-ended, nonlinear play', 'open world (though there can be some game dependant distinctions)'.

If you search for PvE sandbox game meaning you will not find anything, same goes for PvP.

People use PvP and PvE as a way to distinguish between a PvP style sandbox game (though they are talking about a game that contains combat PvP) and a PvE style sandbox game (a game that doesn't contain combat PvP). Because there exists other forms of PvP it wouldn't be easy to actually give a definitive definition to PvP and PvE sandboxes. Much easier to just leave it as game dependant distinctions.

I can understand your definition of competative PVE, but I don't think this is correct in al cases.

rl (tranquility) example:

I had decided to seed a certain lowsec fw station. When i had bought up all the items and transported them from Jita, I found out a guy(that i had been in corp with a year ago) had gotten the same idea. I found out who it was by buying one item from him, and checking his name in transactions. he did the same to me by buying one item. I could also see this in my transactions list.

We then started 0.01 isk undercutting each other on like 50 items. He was winning though. I have a tight spare time schedule and is only able to be on 1 hr per day in the evening and 5 min in the morning on weekdays. He was always on before and after I logged on. Whenever i logged off, he undercut my prices immidiately(I am sure he had me watchlisted, I had him watchlisted ). I know this because I tested more times to log off and on later than i normally would. the prices were changed every time after I logged, but not when i was online longer in the weekends. Only after log-off

By using this strategy he effectively kept me off the market. I would consider this pvp, as he actively through his actions kept me from selling 22.5 hrs a day, while he was making money he could use for new buy orders.

I was getting frustrated, but then remembered he was seeding with his pvp main. We were only competing on approx. 50 items so I assumed he had bad trade skills, since he had so few orders. my trading alt has a lot of market slots, so I started to bring in other items we were competing on. I used the Isk earned by this to cover me undercutting the 50 items to under his pain limit. he left. I am now sole supplier to this lowsec hub, and raised the prices again. Profit.

I would call this is PVP.

NPCs do not "compete" on the commodities market, except on some specific items, at a flat rate, with no variance.
Those same few specific items are, nonetheless also traded by players in webs of buy/sell orders, to which NPC has no recourse of competetive action.

Trading and sourcing of everything else, is entirely player based, and inherently and utterly PvP.

Various broker/trading etc fees/% are essentially NPC in nature, but part of the environment in which economic PvP occurs, rather than competetive with players in and of itself. These also can be mitigated by player action in skilling/standing accordingly.

Infact, the EVE commodities market is even more competetive and PvP than any real world commodities market, due to lack of various regulations. THATs how hardcore PvP it is.

Furthermore, considering how immensely important and structural to EVE its player driven competetive market system is, an introduction of a stock market (as fitting of EVEs essentially Corporate nature), would be a natural extension (albeit very complicated to implement fairly. Nonetheless, would provide an enormous addition to the game in terms of economic warfare not only bewteen individual traders, but Corps themselves on a systemic level.

Now, enough of this nonsense.

The topic is decline in active player numbers.
Lets return to that.

Actually, even then, the commodities will vary in price depending on player activity. As you fill existing buy and sell order stocks, even the NPC traders' rates are adjusted.

At most, you'll find some non-commodity items (overseer effects and blue loot) where the orders are so high that they can't really be filled before they're restocked. Those items are functionally without variance, but the underlying ability to affect the pricing is still there if you build large enough stockpiles.

No it does not, for the simple reason that there is no “E” in that interaction, and definitely not one that fills any kind of competitive function.

You pay your fees and taxes to NPC corporations. You do not know who will buy your items and you cannot make people buy them or deny them the sale. You have no control over who your buyer will be. You could have just dropped the item into space for that matter. Anyone who then takes it does not take it from you but from a can. This is the environment you are interacting with. There is no player anywhere nearby nor do both have to be even logged in.

Say, when you place items onto the market do they still sit in your hangar or are they in fact held by the game environment?

Sure I can.
I can make your buy orders fail, and your sales to either never happen or be done at a loss, thereby ruining your whole investment.

It's not an illusion. It is simply the purest form of what the term actually means. The only place where it doesn't is in that fantasy world you always build up when you have no idea how something works, where you constantly have to define the meaning of everything to make it conform to some strict norm that doesn't actually apply anywhere else.



…do we have to go through the whole “passive” definition again…?

It rarely happens outside of new players doing babby's first regional arbitrage runs in their newly acquired industrials, but it's there. You occasionally see it (or saw it) with skill books in certain systems as a result of someone buying up a year's worth for their 20 new alts.

Hahaha, competitive PvE, that's cute.

I'm pretty sure the hound is being deliberately obtuse and beligerantly misinformed to rile tippia up.

At least I hope so because he's an idiot if I take this at face value.

Better explain to me how one can lose something that one never had to begin with.

In PvP can I destroy your ship. A ship that is all yours and that will be gone if I succeed in destroying it. Although the ships in EVE are not real did I have to make an effort to own one.

In trading do people often like to say that they have "lost profit", but it is just an expectation that got destroyed. You never actually made the amount you expected to get. All that is lost is your expectation of it, because your expectation is all you ever had at that point.

If you expected to win in competitive PvE and it did not work and you need someone to blame then be my guest. And if you want to call it PvP instead, because somewhere did someone make a better profit then be my guest. It is just not my definition of it. Stay docked.

Because competitive PvE you do versus, ah, trees. Ah, yeah, you mining you are competing with the asteroids.

It is like, me vs environment that includes you, and then you versus the environment that includes me.

I am environment for you, and you are environment for me, so we dont go versus each other, we just happen to be two guys doing our thing with the environment that affects each other, but it is just competitive pve.

"We are just putting some nails in the road, if your car pass over one of them, it is your fault."



That happens ALL the time. Traders do ganking contracts for that precise reason. People put stolen merchandise in hisec islands for that reason. People put up orders in stations you cant dock for that reason. There are so many things made for that reason.