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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1201 - 2015-08-27 06:48:13 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Controlling the grid for a few minutes is NOT what CCP means when they say control the grid, and YOU KNOW IT.

Pretending you are dumber than you are is not a good way to convey your agenda.

it's exactly what CCP meant for the cases where defender doesn't turn up.
Roll And once again, the ONLY reason to use an interceptor is for when defenders DO show up. You don;t need an evasion fit ship if you have noone to evade.

Warmeister wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Pointing out a system that is supposed to be producing more fights is producing fewer than the system it replaced is called feedback.
actually your war in Provi proves that new system produces far more fights than the old one.

if you compare it to previous wars, there was nowhere near as many fights
So you weren't around during the fountain war then? There's were considerably more fights with considerably higher losses on both sides. The fights in Provi right now are barely larger than your average roam. When deployed to war the old system generated a lot more content and for a much longer time. It was just a case of motivating people to go to war, which neither system has a good method of accomplishing.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1202 - 2015-08-27 10:29:41 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Pointing out a system that is supposed to be producing more fights is producing fewer than the system it replaced is called feedback.

actually your war in Provi proves that new system produces far more fights than the old one.

if you compare it to previous wars, there was nowhere near as many fights


We have most of the big players of nullsec all crammed into provi most of which looking for fights. Outside of provi its intercepters/t3d online and inside provi the bulk of our attacking force is also cepters and t3d. Also you lot camping a station in nados doesn't constitute much of a fight, I have seen a lot more fights in past wars.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1203 - 2015-08-27 11:06:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Pointing out a system that is supposed to be producing more fights is producing fewer than the system it replaced is called feedback.

actually your war in Provi proves that new system produces far more fights than the old one.

if you compare it to previous wars, there was nowhere near as many fights


We have most of the big players of nullsec all crammed into provi most of which looking for fights. Outside of provi its intercepters/t3d online and inside provi the bulk of our attacking force is also cepters and t3d. Also you lot camping a station in nados doesn't constitute much of a fight, I have seen a lot more fights in past wars.

Warmeister's post is the kind of positive reinforcement ccp needs in these forums.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1204 - 2015-08-27 11:35:05 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You literally don't understand how wormholes work, do you?


It seems quite straightforward to me for CCP to have slightly different Entosis rules for Wormhole space and K-Space.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1205 - 2015-08-27 11:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You literally don't understand how wormholes work, do you?


It seems quite straightforward to me for CCP to have slightly different Entosis rules for Wormhole space and K-Space.



Well yes, but then it starts getting a bit weird and niche and everyone is a special snowflake and the fitting rules are different depending on what bit of space you're in...They could but I don't like it. It's not a good play when there are other effective ways to deal with this.

I'm sticking with drop the speed cap slightly further (3500-3750), thus allow typical legit nano cruisers to function with it whilst making them pretty easy to catch if people turn up, make webs work right (if they've not fixed it already - not been on much since the patch) and increase the mass penalty or some other mechanism to enforce a minimum align time. I think in conjunction with the real priority (below) that'll be about perfect:

The real priority being improving the value of sov. It is intrinsic to the whole thing and if we don't fix that and only tunnel vision onto the link and the ships it'll get into compulsive balancing disorder.

Then they REALLY need to unveil the battlecruiser stuff they are working on.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1206 - 2015-08-27 11:57:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Pointing out a system that is supposed to be producing more fights is producing fewer than the system it replaced is called feedback.

actually your war in Provi proves that new system produces far more fights than the old one.

if you compare it to previous wars, there was nowhere near as many fights


We have most of the big players of nullsec all crammed into provi most of which looking for fights. Outside of provi its intercepters/t3d online and inside provi the bulk of our attacking force is also cepters and t3d. Also you lot camping a station in nados doesn't constitute much of a fight, I have seen a lot more fights in past wars.


Seems to me that T3 destroyers are way out of control.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#1207 - 2015-08-27 13:15:28 UTC
No more out of control than trollceptors. T3d's just happen to be good at destroying stuff, which is what a 'destroyer' should be able to do. They are the best counter to trollceptors (no tackle needed even), and very good at playing an anti-support role in big fleets (if you can fly it right).
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1208 - 2015-08-27 14:12:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Well yes, but then it starts getting a bit weird and niche and everyone is a special snowflake and the fitting rules are different depending on what bit of space you're in...They could but I don't like it. It's not a good play when there are other effective ways to deal with this.
Not really that difficult. 3 entosis links: Micro, T1, T2. T1 and T2 are as they are now but can only go on BC+, micro can go on anything. Micros can only be used on non-sov structures (including station services) while T1 and T2 can be used universally.

afkalt wrote:
The real priority being improving the value of sov. It is intrinsic to the whole thing and if we don't fix that and only tunnel vision onto the link and the ships it'll get into compulsive balancing disorder.
This is a big chunk of the problem, but it won't solve the issue that people not looking for value in sov have a mechanically driven method to attack those that do with boredom.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#1209 - 2015-08-27 14:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Warmeister
Lucas Kell wrote:

Roll And once again, the ONLY reason to use an interceptor is for when defenders DO show up. You don;t need an evasion fit ship if you have noone to evade.


wrong. you need an evasion fit ship to get to the system of your choice first and foremost, and not die to the first gate camp.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So you weren't around during the fountain war then? There's were considerably more fights with considerably higher losses on both sides. The fights in Provi right now are barely larger than your average roam. When deployed to war the old system generated a lot more content and for a much longer time. It was just a case of motivating people to go to war, which neither system has a good method of accomplishing.

actually i was. there were larger fights during fountain war, but there were significantly less of them..
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1210 - 2015-08-27 14:34:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Well yes, but then it starts getting a bit weird and niche and everyone is a special snowflake and the fitting rules are different depending on what bit of space you're in...They could but I don't like it. It's not a good play when there are other effective ways to deal with this.
Not really that difficult. 3 entosis links: Micro, T1, T2. T1 and T2 are as they are now but can only go on BC+, micro can go on anything. Micros can only be used on non-sov structures (including station services) while T1 and T2 can be used universally.


But let's be realistic, people will still cry when citadels get lasered by evasion mobiles, won't they? Especially since they won't shoot back without a sitter in there.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1211 - 2015-08-27 14:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Warmeister wrote:
wrong. you need an evasion fit ship to get to the system of your choice first and foremost, and not die to the first gate camp.
Erm... no, what you need is a scout and/or intel on gatecamps and that squishy thing between your ears to work out a safe route. This is why nullification on cheap ships is bad, it promotes laziness. Plain and simple, if the only way to get to a system and assault it is to use an evasion fit ship then you shouldn't really be allowed to assault it you lazy git.

Warmeister wrote:
actually i was. there were larger fights during fountain war, but there were significantly less of them..
How? I was in multiple fights almost every day for the first half of it and still a fair few right up to the end. In this one I brought 10 drakes with me in preparation, been in multiple fleets every day and I've only been in a couple of fights and lost half shield at most. I even AFKed a few times for several minutes, finding myself alone at a gate when I got back and STILL I couldn't get my slow ass drake blown up. At the rate this is going I'm actually gonna have 9 drakes to sell back in Amarr once we're done. It's horrendous.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#1212 - 2015-08-27 14:46:11 UTC
Until you allow remote repair on the entosis linked ship there is no reason ever to use a slower bulkier ship to ever entosis any of these beacons. Even if there is a fight going on over the beacon you are still better to zoom around and run away because running away is a much bigger chance of survival than tanking an entire fleet on your own.

Sov shouldnt be about capturing things with frigates or fast nano cruisers.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1213 - 2015-08-27 14:46:53 UTC
afkalt wrote:
But let's be realistic, people will still cry when citadels get lasered by evasion mobiles, won't they? Especially since they won't shoot back without a sitter in there.
People will cry about absolutely anything, that's just the way it is. A citadel is a much more personal structure than alliance level infrastructure, and so should be more vulnerable to individual passers by than sov structures though.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#1214 - 2015-08-27 15:31:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
...I brought 10 drakes with me in preparation, been in multiple fleets every day and I've only been in a couple of fights and lost half shield at most. I even AFKed a few times for several minutes, finding myself alone at a gate when I got back and STILL I couldn't get my slow ass drake blown up...It's horrendous.

This is more of a function of outnumbering your enemy 5:1, which is why I keep linking the coalition numbers.

I noticed you don't seem to have much of a problem losing toasting ceptors (not trolling you, but this has been one of the biggest subjects on this thread, so it is a must to point it out, as consistently and frequently as it was brought up):
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48686697/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48685775/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48684083/

Eve servers can't handle the big tidi fights, that is the real reason they are forced to design mechanics around smaller local fights, it is what it is, and I would rather CCP recognize that limitation and design to it, over hanging on to mechanics that eventually lead to huge fleet engagements that either crash servers, or utterly paralyze us into a tidi ridden misery fest.

I do love the concept of huge battles, but that isn't a technically feasible reality right now. The single shard sand-box is still the best draw about this game, and that means spreading us out and localizing conflict, as well as economies/communities/self-sufficiency/etc.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1215 - 2015-08-27 15:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Harry Saq wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...I brought 10 drakes with me in preparation, been in multiple fleets every day and I've only been in a couple of fights and lost half shield at most. I even AFKed a few times for several minutes, finding myself alone at a gate when I got back and STILL I couldn't get my slow ass drake blown up...It's horrendous.
This is more of a function of outnumbering your enemy 5:1, which is why I keep linking the coalition numbers.
Except of course that we're generally not forming up on a coalition level. I'm only flying with SMA (OK, yesterday we had a single bastion guy along for the ride) so most fights we have are just us. Your constant complaining that we have too many friends continues to be irrelevant.

Harry Saq wrote:
I noticed you don't seem to have much of a problem losing toasting ceptors (not trolling you, but this has been one of the biggest subjects on this thread, so it is a must to point it out, as consistently and frequently as it was brought up):
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48686697/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48685775/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48684083/
All the time they can be used we're going to use them. Those particular losses you see there were from a specific op where we tried (and succeeded) to get a structure into overtime to give our main entosis fleet a shot at reinforcing it. Being able to fly through gatecamps and rapidly bail out when engaged helped with that. I'm against trollceptors exactly for those reasons, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to abuse the hell out of them while they are about.

Harry Saq wrote:
Eve servers can't handle the big tidi fights, that is the real reason they are forced to design mechanics around smaller local fights, it is what it is, and I would rather CCP recognize that limitation and design to it, over hanging on to mechanics that eventually lead to huge fleet engagements that either crash servers, or utterly paralyze us into a tidi ridden misery fest.

I do love the concept of huge battles, but that isn't a technically feasible reality right now. The single shard sand-box is still the best draw about this game, and that means spreading us out and localizing conflict, as well as economies/communities/self-sufficiency/etc.
No mechanics will prevent big fleet fights. All the time people can work together in large numbers (which is always, because this is an MMO) they will. That said, a lot of people love those big fights, tidi and all, and they certainly do a lot to get EVE to be more widely knows, so them becoming less common is a shame. Perhaps what they should be doing is working on ways to leverage threading for their solar system servers to make the servers more capable of handling those fights.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1216 - 2015-08-27 15:46:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
afkalt wrote:
But let's be realistic, people will still cry when citadels get lasered by evasion mobiles, won't they? Especially since they won't shoot back without a sitter in there.
People will cry about absolutely anything, that's just the way it is. A citadel is a much more personal structure than alliance level infrastructure, and so should be more vulnerable to individual passers by than sov structures though.



I dunno, we will be anchoring supers at these things - Feels a tad more important than the flag in the sand which is a TCU!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1217 - 2015-08-27 16:55:04 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...I brought 10 drakes with me in preparation, been in multiple fleets every day and I've only been in a couple of fights and lost half shield at most. I even AFKed a few times for several minutes, finding myself alone at a gate when I got back and STILL I couldn't get my slow ass drake blown up...It's horrendous.

This is more of a function of outnumbering your enemy 5:1, which is why I keep linking the coalition numbers.

I noticed you don't seem to have much of a problem losing toasting ceptors (not trolling you, but this has been one of the biggest subjects on this thread, so it is a must to point it out, as consistently and frequently as it was brought up):
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48686697/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48685775/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48684083/

Eve servers can't handle the big tidi fights, that is the real reason they are forced to design mechanics around smaller local fights, it is what it is, and I would rather CCP recognize that limitation and design to it, over hanging on to mechanics that eventually lead to huge fleet engagements that either crash servers, or utterly paralyze us into a tidi ridden misery fest.

I do love the concept of huge battles, but that isn't a technically feasible reality right now. The single shard sand-box is still the best draw about this game, and that means spreading us out and localizing conflict, as well as economies/communities/self-sufficiency/etc.



WRONG. If the servers could hold 1 BILLIOn people on same node, Still woudl be no big wars, Because whenonly 2 powerful sides remain and a few game reserve regions, these 2 sides will avoid fightign each other at any cost, because no side can ever kill the other and the COST of even trying will be absurdly high.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1218 - 2015-08-27 17:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
afkalt wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Well yes, but then it starts getting a bit weird and niche and everyone is a special snowflake and the fitting rules are different depending on what bit of space you're in...They could but I don't like it. It's not a good play when there are other effective ways to deal with this.
Not really that difficult. 3 entosis links: Micro, T1, T2. T1 and T2 are as they are now but can only go on BC+, micro can go on anything. Micros can only be used on non-sov structures (including station services) while T1 and T2 can be used universally.


But let's be realistic, people will still cry when citadels get lasered by evasion mobiles, won't they? Especially since they won't shoot back without a sitter in there.


Also debatable how effective said weapons are going to be, if they are capital sized then there will be issues with trollcepters and other small fast junk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1219 - 2015-08-27 17:08:04 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:


Seems to me that T3 destroyers are way out of control.


Thats a whole other argument with t3d being too overpowered and invalidating things like AF completely.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#1220 - 2015-08-27 19:07:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Harry Saq wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...I brought 10 drakes with me in preparation, been in multiple fleets every day and I've only been in a couple of fights and lost half shield at most. I even AFKed a few times for several minutes, finding myself alone at a gate when I got back and STILL I couldn't get my slow ass drake blown up...It's horrendous.
This is more of a function of outnumbering your enemy 5:1, which is why I keep linking the coalition numbers.
Except of course that we're generally not forming up on a coalition level. I'm only flying with SMA (OK, yesterday we had a single bastion guy along for the ride) so most fights we have are just us. Your constant complaining that we have too many friends continues to be irrelevant.
The numbers do in fact matter, since you are attacking the entire region spread out according to assignments. That means the defenders are also spread out, and with much much fewer of them to pull from you are going to see alot less of them. Numbers are what they are, and it isn't complaining, just want to make sure your complaining is in context.
In particular, this context:
http://rischwa.net/coalitions/

The Imperium (38.05%) - 41237
Drone Region Federation (12.01%) - 13020
----------------vs---------------
Provi-Bloc (9.72%) - 10530

Where the 53k group is saying the game isn't producing enough opportunities for us to fight big battles against our 10.5k enemies.

Lucas Kell wrote:
No mechanics will prevent big fleet fights....That said, a lot of people love those big fights, tidi and all, and they certainly do a lot to get EVE to be more widely knows, so them becoming less common is a shame. Perhaps what they should be doing is working on ways to leverage threading for their solar system servers to make the servers more capable of handling those fights.
Agreed, no mechanics can or should stop it, however normal conquest mechanics should not REQUIRE it as a logical bi-product as with the old system. They worked on trying to solve the tidi problems for years, at some point you need to change direction. Perhaps they eventually crack it and the experience is better, but until then what is certain is that they have failed thus far, and atleast they are moving on to something solvable. Since mechanics no longer require the big escalation, we will be free to escalate as much as we please voluntarily and find out if the servers can hold.