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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#981 - 2015-08-23 05:23:00 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:


All you do is look for ways to trash someone who doesn't agree with you when they post with their main.
It simply gives you ammo in trying to derail their argument without actually attacking the argument.

That is harder to do when someone chooses to not post with their main. You have to go with blind personal attacks which are not as effective.

You want the argument and poster to be your basis for counter-argument.

Not just the argument and the merits of it alone.



No, posting with an alt just means there is no evidence they are telling the truth. Its a tactic used in countless arguments by people who clearly have no experience in the subject or are telling outright lies. We have already debunked his arguments several times now.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#982 - 2015-08-23 05:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Chrome Veinss wrote:
I dont mind the trollceptors, especially the ones that we get in deklein turning off a station service here and there and even ocassionally taking sov. Its true, if we had active people in every system and corp hangars with griffins everywhere it would be trivial to undock and jam them. Not fun but a lot of eve things aren't fun. Maybe we will have to adapt and do that. I wouldnt mind. Maybe we can do with a bit less space and more renters to ensure there are always people available to jam and entosis things. That is all fairly trivial.

That and 40+ pages of tears.

Chrome Veinss wrote:
I think the bigger issue is that we have gone from a system where hundreds to thousands of people in ships ranging from frigates to dreadnaughts had to commit to complex campaigns lasting weeks or months in order to conquer a region to a system where a single person in one of the cheapest ships in the game with little to no support can do the same in a couple days, provided they have more time available and a higher resistance to boredom than their "enemy". But of course this "single person" is irrelevant. What matters is what happens when its two thousand of them, highly coordinated, operating under a single command structure. And we're going to have to do that because no one else will and we need to study how the system works in the hands of an actual coalition. I get the feeling that its everyone else that will be crying about how unfair it is once we're done with the test though!

First, we have gone from a system where low truesec meant something to a system where -0.1 is good enough, which removed at least one major conflict driver for south, which is not a blue donut like northwest.
Second, it's only possible as a single person against completely uncontested space. Which is working as intended.
Third, as always, I dare you to try. You gewns bark a lot, like always, but had notable difficulty biting anything but your own butt lately. My prediction is that if you're going with trollceptors, you will fail pathetically like every trollceptor who came to me did. It works only against uncontested sov, so you will have to contest it, and that can go either way depending on the defender, but no chance with a trollceptor.

baltec1 wrote:
No, posting with an alt just means there is no evidence they are telling the truth. Its a tactic used in countless arguments by people who clearly have no experience in the subject or are telling outright lies. We have already debunked his arguments several times now.

"but we may not have a griffin qqqqqqqqq" does not count as debunking sorry.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#983 - 2015-08-23 05:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Orca Platypus wrote:

"but we may not have a griffin qqqqqqqqq" does not count as debunking sorry.


Griffons are a good support ship, they are not a good solo ship and they do not get rid of trollceptors or are fun to fly. All they will manage is to jam the enemy then die when a few ceptors gather to get rid of it before returning to their entosising.

Your tactic sucks balls and won't work, best it will manage is to entertain the trollceptors.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#984 - 2015-08-23 05:46:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:


All you do is look for ways to trash someone who doesn't agree with you when they post with their main.
It simply gives you ammo in trying to derail their argument without actually attacking the argument.

That is harder to do when someone chooses to not post with their main. You have to go with blind personal attacks which are not as effective.

You want the argument and poster to be your basis for counter-argument.

Not just the argument and the merits of it alone.



No, posting with an alt just means there is no evidence they are telling the truth. Its a tactic used in countless arguments by people who clearly have no experience in the subject or are telling outright lies. We have already debunked his arguments several times now.



Personally I support that old suggestion that NPC toons are banned from posting anywhere but GD and newbie sub forums. It would help to clean up a lot of badposting.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#985 - 2015-08-23 05:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
baltec1 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

"but we may not have a griffin qqqqqqqqq" does not count as debunking sorry.


Griffons are a good support ship, they are not a good solo ship and they do not get rid of trollceptors or are fun to fly. All they will manage is to jam the enemy then die when a few ceptors gather to get rid of it before returning to their entosising.

Your tactic sucks balls and won't work, best it will manage is to entertain the trollceptors.


They weren't meant to "get rid" of trollceptors, just to make them completely meaningless with the rarest actual application.
Getting rid of entosis ceptor is like getting rid of any other ceptor and isn't a subject worth touching normally, unless we're talking with someone too gewn to be at least average at the game of actually piloting his spaceship.
Just as you were being butthurt at the prospect of losing a griffin, I gave you an idea of fielding a Kitsune with a tackle so when ceptors come for you, you can actually get rid of them. Your response was equally nonsensual and stood somewhere inbetween "buh it's not fun to fly qqqqqq" and "ahhhhh 3 weeks training for Kitsune is impossible qqqqq".

You haven't even gotten to the tactic yet and just gewned ahead with nonsense. As usual.

Once again, tears are not debunking.
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Personally I support that old suggestion that NPC toons are banned from posting anywhere but GD and newbie sub forums. It would help to clean up a lot of badposting.

WTB Posting Alliance.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#986 - 2015-08-23 06:00:50 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:


They weren't meant to "get rid" of trollceptors, just to make them completely meaningless with the rarest actual application.


Only that doesn't happen does it? You still need to defend your space against them and if you arn't killing them then they are still there trolling away. This isn't fun or generating fights and the vast bulk of ships are rendered useless.



Orca Platypus wrote:

Getting rid of entosis ceptor is like getting rid of any other ceptor and isn't a subject worth touching normally, unless we're talking with someone too gewn to be at least average at the game of actually piloting his spaceship.


Trollcepters are build to evade fights while every other intercepters is built for tackling. This is not like getting rid of any other cepter. I also wouldn't start trying to go down the piloting skill argument path with me.

Orca Platypus wrote:

Just as you were being butthurt at the prospect of losing a ceptor I gave you an idea of fielding a Kitsune with a tackle so when ceptors come for you, you can actually get rid of them. Your response was equally nonsensual and stood somewhere inbetween "buh it's not fun to fly qqqqqq" and "ahhhhh 3 weeks training for Kitsune is impossible qqqqq".


So how long are people going to play the sov game that is not fun to play?

[/quote]
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#987 - 2015-08-23 06:07:04 UTC
Orca's posting is analogous to the trollceptor, consistent in coming in to annoy and accomplish nothing, then quickly escaping when attention is given (in his case to an NPC corp).
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#988 - 2015-08-23 06:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Buldath
baltec1 wrote:
You still need to defend your space

Well sorry if that is apparently too much to ask.

baltec1 wrote:
Trollcepters are build to evade fights while every other intercepters is built for tackling. This is not like getting rid of any other cepter. I also wouldn't start trying to go down the piloting skill argument path with me.

blablabla great me.
And no, there are plenty of ceptors built to avoid fights which aren't entosis ones.

baltec1 wrote:
So how long are people going to play the sov game that is not fun to play?

Why are you playing it if it's not fun?
It's more fun for me than dominion could ever be.
And yes we held space in dominion, lost space in dominion, gained space in dominion. Fozziesov is a lot better and definitely more fun than dread babysitting. It being not fun for you is your own fault of being a *snip*.
Adapt, downsize, occupy your systems, you'll forget trollceptor existed instead of crying non-stop about it.

bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Orca's posting is analogous to the trollceptor, consistent in coming in to annoy and accomplish nothing, then quickly escaping when attention is given (in his case to an NPC corp).

It accomplishes the goal of making you look stupid in addition to being stupid.

*snip* Personal Attacks Removed. Keep it civil. *snip* ~ISD Buldath
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#989 - 2015-08-23 06:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Orca Platypus wrote:

Well sorry if that is apparently too much to ask.


Defending isn't a problem, the issue is that trollcepters are even more boring than the old sov mechanics.

baltec1 wrote:

blablabla great me.
And no, there are plenty of ceptors built to avoid fights which aren't entosis ones.


Such as?

Orca Platypus wrote:

Why are you playing it if it's not fun?
It's more fun for me than dominion could ever be.
And yes we held space in dominion, lost space in dominion, gained space in dominion. Fozziesov is a lot better and definitely more fun than dread babysitting. It being not fun for you is your own fault of being a dominionfag.
Adapt, downsize, occupy your systems, you'll forget trollceptor existed instead of crying non-stop about it.


Post with your main or all you say is rubbish. I call bullshit on you having ever held anything in any sov mechanic given your utter lack of knowledge in your posting

[/quote]
John Wolfcastle
Mining and Industry Society.
#990 - 2015-08-23 07:45:10 UTC
Le me is too dumb to read first page....
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#991 - 2015-08-23 08:21:36 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
All you do is look for ways to trash someone who doesn't agree with you when they post with their main.
It simply gives you ammo in trying to derail their argument without actually attacking the argument.

That is harder to do when someone chooses to not post with their main. You have to go with blind personal attacks which are not as effective.

You want the argument and poster to be your basis for counter-argument.

Not just the argument and the merits of it alone.
There's nothing to argue, read the guy's posts. From moment one he's just been "Grr goons". Even outside of these threads. Based on his posts here he's not used the system.

If he actively refuse to post with his main, then obviously he either isn't confident enough in what he says or he's actively lying, otherwise he'd put his name to it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#992 - 2015-08-23 09:44:34 UTC
But do they at least have experience in trolling sov, all it takes is set up an alliance and grab a laser and a ceptor, then you too can attack

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Hobo Traveller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#993 - 2015-08-23 10:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hobo Traveller
baltec1 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

Well sorry if that is apparently too much to ask.


Defending isn't a problem, the issue is that trollcepters are even more boring than the old sov mechanics.

baltec1 wrote:

blablabla great me.
And no, there are plenty of ceptors built to avoid fights which aren't entosis ones.


Such as?


And in this thread we learn that baltec1 has never heard of travel ceptors. Maybe somebody will be kind enough to educate you.

Edit:
And to save you a post, yes posting from an alt. That way you can just go for making flawed arguments without thinking about adapting instead of issuing threats. Since you are one of the only entities in the game playing FozzieSov as intended you shouldn't need to be doing all of this you know.

The worst part of FozzieSov is that it's made me agree with Snot Shot post. THAT is a good enough reason to post with an alt.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#994 - 2015-08-23 12:13:53 UTC
Hobo Traveller wrote:


The worst part of FozzieSov is that it's made me agree with Snot Shot post.


The horror. The horror.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#995 - 2015-08-23 13:36:31 UTC
Hobo Traveller wrote:


And in this thread we learn that baltec1 has never heard of travel ceptors. Maybe somebody will be kind enough to educate you.


Attacking sov with effectively travel fit ceptors is depressingly accurate.
Hobo Traveller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#996 - 2015-08-23 14:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hobo Traveller
baltec1 wrote:
Hobo Traveller wrote:


And in this thread we learn that baltec1 has never heard of travel ceptors. Maybe somebody will be kind enough to educate you.


Attacking sov with effectively travel fit ceptors is depressingly accurate.


Ah so you knew about them but just chose to ignore them because they weakened your argument..
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#997 - 2015-08-23 15:11:32 UTC
Okay, what is the obsession with Rube Goldberg machines around here? Every time CCP or the playerbase suggests a rebalance to address broken mechanics, everyone seems to want to make it as complicated as possible.

You want to eliminate trollceptors in this instance? Change the entosis link this way. Maintain the mass penalty. Add a new thing - activating the entosis link now incurs a 5% speed boost. And just 5%. With the already-existing game mechanic that you cannot activate more than one speed module, now they can't try to burn off the grid before you arrive. Done. Simple. That ship is as much as committed to the capture.

(I do want to stop and give kudos to all the feedback that was given before the release, so most problems with this system never had to see the light of day)

By the way, nullification is a truly terrible mechanic, but it is necessary with anchorable bubbles. Effortless shutting down of gates with that is bad gameplay. Commit dictors to it and you have my blessing. But if you don't have a ship on grid (or even just long enough to launch a sphere) then you don't deserve to have that gate effectively shut down. And another thing, the idea of ceptors being nullified so they can tackle large prey for roaming fleets doesn't work because those fleets (unless T3) aren't getting through those bubble gates any time this century, so by the nature of bubbles you mandate that hundreds of ceptors swarm for the kill.

You want less ceptors? You want nullification dropped? Petition for it along with an end to anchorable bubbles. Then real fleets, much more catchable fleets, will roam null. Until then, nullified ceptors is the monster you guys created.
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#998 - 2015-08-23 15:30:04 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Magorath wrote:
so.. less time to react as a defender and troll ships still perfectly acceptable.

Now this is content creation.

Never thought I'd say it but pos bashing was actually more fun then watching a timer as it's not a serious take over. I'd have a use for a carrier + dread as well.




^^ This. These changes barely address the major issues pointed out both on the forums, by the CSM, and on the EVE Reddit (namely fewer command nodes, reduction of speed while entosising to more like 10%, and removal of the ability to fit entosis links on ships below cruiser size).

The correct way to address community unrest about the prior changes is not to stand behind them while ignoring how bad they are.

EDIT: By the way, a guy on page 2 linked a poll. You should check the results.




What part of "trollceptor" do they not understand. Frigs/destroyers should not be able to capture sov.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#999 - 2015-08-23 16:04:01 UTC
Hobo Traveller wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Hobo Traveller wrote:


And in this thread we learn that baltec1 has never heard of travel ceptors. Maybe somebody will be kind enough to educate you.


Attacking sov with effectively travel fit ceptors is depressingly accurate.


Ah so you knew about them but just chose to ignore them because they weakened your argument..


In what way?

The whole point of the sov changes was to get us fighting more, using ships to attack sov while avoiding fights is the exact opposite of the goal CCP have.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1000 - 2015-08-23 16:06:09 UTC
loquacious7 wrote:
What part of "trollceptor" do they not understand. Frigs/destroyers should not be able to capture sov.

What part of "capture of uncontested sov should be doable with a single frigate" in goals of fozziesov you don't understand?
Like all those crying "miners have made themselves a victim boarding a mining ship", gewns and other MAH SHINY RENT peeps "made themselves a victim" by holding more sov than they can use.

I stated a few times that freighters and mining ships were too vulnerable due to bad design, not because they were flown in some bad way. Now that you get a game design that is bad for you, you cry like you never imagined this before.

Well, the advice is simple. If mining is "too dangerous", well, don't mine. If holding sov in empty systems is "too tedious", don't hold it.