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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#141 - 2015-08-13 14:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lim Hiaret
Strange discussion Ugh

Small suggestion for returning players that find their alliance moved somewhere far. Simple solution is a GM petition to move the guy to the new alliance capital. Nothing should be save, but EVE is a game and that is more of a friendly 'welcome back'.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#142 - 2015-08-13 14:53:50 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Michael Pawlicki wrote:
I very much like the idea of jump fatigue drugs. I would prefer to give them a slightly higher side effect chance, but that could be a very interesting industry, especially if the sites that have the materials for production are in 0.0 or 0.1 lowsec systems.


One of the concerns with jump fatigue drugs is the fragmentation of fleets. Half the fleet is effected by serious side effects while the other half is fine.


also, take drug - bad side effect, pod yourself, take drug again

Rinse/repeat until no side effect - go on fleet
Kendarr
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#143 - 2015-08-13 14:53:56 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)


    • This is the solution, right here.

    Zebra-Corp
    Pandora Myuki
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #144 - 2015-08-13 14:59:27 UTC
    Okay CCP,
    Easy fix to Jump Fatigue that would make everyone in game happy.

    Remove Jump Fatigue as a whole, as you can see the majority of the player base hates it.

    Increase a time between jumps relative to the distance traveled.

    Increase Range to 10 LY's for Supers and Titans, 8 LY, for Regular Carriers and dreads, 12LY for BLops (12 LY for a cov ops cyno 50% on the timer and 10LY for a Regular cyno and the reg timer in effect), and industrials/JF. (JF's should also get a 75% reduction on the Jump timer)

    Jump Bridges should be a 50% on the timer as well.

    I would say a 20 minute timer for jumping to max Range as the base number.

    This would in an easy step get more content and make capitals a viable fighting force again, let Blops do what Blops are good at, hit and run behind lines and give JF pilots what they want to move things around more.

    Ravcharas
    Infinite Point
    Pandemic Horde
    #145 - 2015-08-13 14:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
    I think fatigue bonuses in your home system is a very difficult thing to balance. There's a very real possibility that it will let you turtle up something awful.
    Equto
    Imperium Technologies
    Sigma Grindset
    #146 - 2015-08-13 15:06:04 UTC
    Pandora Myuki wrote:
    Okay CCP,
    Easy fix to Jump Fatigue that would make everyone in game happy.

    Remove Jump Fatigue as a whole, as you can see the majority of the player base hates it.

    Increase a time between jumps relative to the distance traveled.

    Increase Range to 10 LY's for Supers and Titans, 8 LY, for Regular Carriers and dreads, 12LY for BLops (12 LY for a cov ops cyno 50% on the timer and 10LY for a Regular cyno and the reg timer in effect), and industrials/JF. (JF's should also get a 75% reduction on the Jump timer)

    Jump Bridges should be a 50% on the timer as well.

    I would say a 20 minute timer for jumping to max Range as the base number.

    This would in an easy step get more content and make capitals a viable fighting force again, let Blops do what Blops are good at, hit and run behind lines and give JF pilots what they want to move things around more.


    Why exactly should titans and supers have a longer ranger than carriers and the same range as industrials/JF's while blops get the longest range?
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #147 - 2015-08-13 15:10:22 UTC
    Kenneth Feld wrote:
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Michael Pawlicki wrote:
    I very much like the idea of jump fatigue drugs. I would prefer to give them a slightly higher side effect chance, but that could be a very interesting industry, especially if the sites that have the materials for production are in 0.0 or 0.1 lowsec systems.


    One of the concerns with jump fatigue drugs is the fragmentation of fleets. Half the fleet is effected by serious side effects while the other half is fine.


    also, take drug - bad side effect, pod yourself, take drug again

    Rinse/repeat until no side effect - go on fleet



    Would certainly stop HG slave proliferation Blink
    Alyxportur
    From Our Cold Dead Hands
    ORPHANS OF EVE
    #148 - 2015-08-13 15:17:04 UTC
    • Altering jump ranges
      • Logistics should be farther range than PVP with no fatigue. Bottle-necking logistics only discourages content. Encouraging all-local production is not only a pipe dream, it's terrible for the EVE economy as a whole. Let the Great Material Continuum flow as it wills.

    • Altering jump fatigue curves
      • Don't use a curve. Use flat-rate math. Any jump (regardless of range) = X amount of fatigue.

    • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
      • No.

    • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
      • If you want to buff subcaps so that they no longer need a titan to bridge, sure, but if your new FTL also includes a fatigue-like mechanic, absolutely not.

    • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
      • No. You nerfed capitals because sov groups threw them around too much (aka power projection). If the initial reason for the mechanic is gone, remove the mechanic just like you removed industry teams.

    • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
      • Supercapital-mass-sized wormholes please.... direct or through C6 holes. Now wouldn't that shake up boring C6 space as well.... and put supercapitals in wormholes.... oops.

    • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
      • Analogy time: I drove five miles to the store and waited in the car for an hour before I could get out and do my shopping. No.

    • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
      • Maybe. If you gave them better range and zero fatigue during move ops.... maybe.

    • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
      • Sounds like pay to win or wait to win. Both passive and boring.

    • What does local-content mean to you?
      • It means EVE is dying. If I wanted to only play with a few people, I wouldn't play a single-shard, big universe space game.



    In the http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/ blog post it was said, "This blog describes the final state of affairs for what is shipping in Phoebe – barring catastrophe we will not be making further adjustments." but I hope that is not the case here. I think you/CCP may have misinterpreted a necessary part of the game as a problem.

    As I see it, the core 'problem' of capitals was that they were the end goal of many, and many players got them, grouped them, and used them to their advantage as much as possible. Some of us (yes, myself included) invested years in the skills required for intensive, capital warfare. Naturally, as time progressed during dominion sov, players realized that the more they grouped up and used their collective capital forces to advantage, the more powerful they were.

    New players could not cope with this power, and they shouldn't have the power to do so. Hundreds/Thousands of players who worked and waited for their end-goal of capital skills found them nerfed and useless. EVE now lacks a significant long-term goal for players to skill towards. While new players are necessary for the survival of EVE and the long-term replacement of playerbase decline, a large reason for long-term play has now been removed from the game. I believe this has not only affected the decline in high-SP accounts (previously loyal, avid players of nullsec) but it also hurts the odds of keeping new players as they now lack what was probably the most common long-term skill point goal: capitals.

    Please remove all the jump fatigue mechanics. All of them.
    BadAssMcKill
    Aliastra
    #149 - 2015-08-13 15:21:53 UTC
    CCP Mimic wrote:
    EVE Online.


    Why do you feel the need to wrap up so much info behind the NDA
    M1k3y Koontz
    House of Musashi
    Stay Feral
    #150 - 2015-08-13 15:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
    Pandora Myuki wrote:

    Increase Range to 10 LY's for Supers and Titans, 8 LY, for Regular Carriers and dreads, 12LY for BLops (12 LY for a cov ops cyno 50% on the timer and 10LY for a Regular cyno and the reg timer in effect), and industrials/JF. (JF's should also get a 75% reduction on the Jump timer)


    Why should supers go further than regular caps? Super blobs are half the reason Fatigue was put into place, people couldn't use their dreadnoughts without fear of PL or their local supercap powerhouse killing them all.

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    Tineoidea Asanari
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #151 - 2015-08-13 15:42:09 UTC
    CCP, if you want serious feedback, you should let the playerbase exactly know what your idea is behind the changes you are doing.
    "We want to nerf power projection because of it limits what small alliances can achieve"
    That is not precise. It's extremely vague.

    Do you want to allow a nullsec, where a big group can travel via the whole galaxy, but in a specific, dedicated manner of time? Like, if you want to invade providence from Deklein, you can do that without having a pure horror of a move op, but you can't be back home at 6pm to stop an enemy from invading.
    Personally, I would love a nullsec like that.

    Or do you want a nullsec, where everything is produced locally and all of the content is also only local?
    The way you currently change the game is causing wide fear, because of it looks like you are going this path (also CCP Fozzie did a few statements yesterday that were definitly heading in this direction).
    Because of even the best maintained, best stocked nullsec market currently in the game (YA0) is not independend of the highsec production. Highsec producers and miners that would have wanted to go to nullsec, would have done it long ago, but they dont. Why? Because of they are risk averse players (which is absolute fine) and dont want to go to nullsec.
    So, instead of trying to force us to force them down to us, could you maybe drop the vision of an EVE, where everything is produced locally and we have a lot of small empires which are fighting and backstabbing each other? Yes, that would also be a dream to play, but I dont see a healthy way for the game to come there, most likely people that you try to force will just unsubscribe.

    We completly understand, why you dont want to go into detail about what you are planning - and we would also rage if you promise something and while in developement you come with a better idea and then we are demanding what you promised earlier.
    But we are living since a year without knowing what is coming next or what the greater vision is. There is something with the new structures and we would really love to believe you that it would be a fantastic world to play EVE. Not caring about feedback players gave you in the last months (you did hear on a bit of the feedback. but not enough. trollceptors are a problem, not because of they are a danger for your sov, but because of they are annoying and neither fun nor rewarding to play against) is something we feel very concerned about, as the game drifts more and more in a meta that some love, but others not.
    Give us battlecruisers, battleships and capitals back and the ability to use capitals besides knocking down the occasional POS/traveling super and we will be far to busy doing stuff to worry about the future.
    Bronson Hughes
    The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
    #152 - 2015-08-13 15:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
    Everyone else seems to be chiming in here, so I'll add my 0.02 ISK.

    I understand and agree with the intended purpose of the Phoebe travel changes. Pre-Phoebe, it was far too easy for large coalitions to send fleets of ships over vast distances, which made the holding of large dominions, and defending said domains while away on deployment, the de facto way of operating in sov nullsec. This environment heavily favored large coalitions and made it nigh impossible for smaller entities to hold territory without aligning with one of the major powers.

    So, in response to player input, CCP decided to make it difficult to move capital ships (and subcaps via jump bridges an jump portals) over long distances.

    The problem is that CCP didn't really make it more difficult, they just made it boring and more time consuming. EvE is a game, playing a game should be fun, and game mechanics that are inherently not fun, even if they accomplish a goal, seem like a bad idea. Here are my thought's on Larrikin's list:

    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    • Altering jump ranges
    • Altering jump fatigue curves
    • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
    • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
    • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
    • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
    • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
    • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
    • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
    • What does local-content mean to you?

    • Current jump ranges are fine. If the goal is to limit long range movement, then enabling longer jump ranges seems counter-intuitive. I would say that modules/rigs that allow for longer jump range but carry heavy penalties would be an interesting option for moving capital ships, but with carriers you could just refit upon arrival effectively negating any penalty the module/rig would have.

    • I agree with others in that the fatigue limits should be considerably lower. Being able to accrue a month of jump fatigue is, in my opinion, simply absurd. Fatigue should be about limiting how far you can travel quickly in a single play session, not over multiple weeks. I am less certain about the rates at which fatigue accrues, but the limit needs to come down.

      • Speaking of modules, one module I could see being viable is one that reduced your jump fatigue accrual rate at the expense of jump range. You'd be trading the ability to jump far with the ability to jump more often, and its penalty would apply whether the ship in question refit after arriving in their destination or not. (This would only apply to jump drives, not portals or bridges.)

    • Fatigue should absolutely remain with characters. Making it ship-based means you can simply re-package and re-assemble your ships and wipe clean any accrued fatigue.

    • I hate to sound cliche, but let's get jump drives fixed before we go trying something new.

    • I think that sovereignty should have a beneficial impact on the fatigue accrual but only if the benefit applies only to alliance members (no benefit for allies), and only if the benefit applied is based on the lowest sov index of the starting point and destination (i.e. if you're jumping to or from non-sovereign space, you get zero benefit). This would allow for less taxing movement within your own space without benefiting you at all if you're going elsewhere. I'd say between 2% and 5% reduction per sov level, based on the lowest sov index between your current system and your destination. This would yield a max reduction of 10% to 25% jumping from sov 5 to sov 5, and less when your jump includes a lower sov system. This would apply to jump drives, jump portals, and jump bridges.

    • Again, let's fix what's broken before we go tweaking it relative to other things.

    • I'm torn on having jump fatigue limit combat effectiveness as opposed to travel. On the one hand, reduced combat effectiveness can simply be countered by bringing increased numbers, but on the other hand I could see it dovetailing well with granting sov-based fatigue reductions. In essence, jumps within your own territory would leave you at higher combat effectiveness, whereas jumps into neutral or hostile territory would reduce your ability to fight. I need to roll this one around in my head more.

    • No to "move mode" for the same reason as attaching fatigue to hulls. Re-package, re-assemble, and you could easily overcome any "move mode" limitations.

    • I agree with others that drugs seem like an interesting way to mitigate jump fatigue because of the random side effects. Side effects should include things like increased capacitor requirement to jump, reduced jump range, etc. This would open up options to folks who wanted to make multiple, short-range jumps (i.e. hit-and-run raid) while still limiting their ability to cover large distances.

    • To me, "local content" means a group of people live in and operate out of an area, and the further they want to operate from home, the harder it is. It means losec capital pilots can undock their ships and use them without fearing a supercap batphone hot-drop on them. It means that people who claim space actually own it and live in it because it's all they can effectively protect.

    Relatively Notorious By Association

    My Many Misadventures

    I predicted FAUXs
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #153 - 2015-08-13 15:44:19 UTC
    CCP: You are trying to fix yesterday's problem.

    The cancer that will kill Eve is in the form of FozzieSov. Space aids is nothing in comparison to that.
    Andre Vauban
    Federal Defense Union
    Gallente Federation
    #154 - 2015-08-13 15:45:22 UTC
    I still prefer the idea of "forced localization". Consider a system that works as follows:

    1. You assign a "point of origin system". This system must be the system you are currently located in. Doing so incurs a timer similar to the existing fatigue timers, except instead of controlling the ability to jump they control the ability to set a new "point of origin system". In other words, the timer doesn't impact your ability to jump, it impacts your ability to set a new point of origin system.
    2. You may now jump at will, with the following restriction. The destination system must be within jump range (considering skills) of BOTH your current system and the "point of origin system".

    You can now whiz around all you want in your localized area, but cannot leave your localized area easily.

    This is basically what we have now, but with two benefits. 1) You can jump around your localized area an unlimited number of times. 2) You can construct JF/carrier convoy systems to move ships and assets similar to the pony express with each person jumping multiple times for a short leg of the trip.

    PS I am a lowsec dweller and currently enjoy the post Phoebe world except for the fact that my suitcase carrier has been nerfed into the ground.

    .
    Sentamon
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #155 - 2015-08-13 15:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
    RiP old Null dominated by RMT operators, may it never return.

    10 years of trash won't be cleaned up overnight.

    ~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
    FFK
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #156 - 2015-08-13 15:50:09 UTC
    I saw reasonable ideas about moving fatigue from player to ship, like this One way ticket” or nerf of capitals and supercapitals It may be not just about money...
    Basil Vulpine
    Blueprint Haus
    Blades of Grass
    #157 - 2015-08-13 16:01:14 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Michael Pawlicki wrote:
    I very much like the idea of jump fatigue drugs. I would prefer to give them a slightly higher side effect chance, but that could be a very interesting industry, especially if the sites that have the materials for production are in 0.0 or 0.1 lowsec systems.


    One of the concerns with jump fatigue drugs is the fragmentation of fleets. Half the fleet is effected by serious side effects while the other half is fine.


    And this is a problem why? All boosters have that potential. Nobody forces people to take them and there are skills that reduce the risks.
    Ivory Harcourt
    Space Ants
    Brave Collective
    #158 - 2015-08-13 16:06:49 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    CCP: You are trying to fix yesterday's problem.

    The cancer that will kill Eve is in the form of FozzieSov. Space aids is nothing in comparison to that.


    It will kill EVE for renting empires. Other people still have fun.
    Hendrink Collie
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #159 - 2015-08-13 16:07:26 UTC
    After reading the structures blogs and seeing just how citadels will play out as far as destruction of assets, vulnerbility timers, etc... I'm actually O.K with how fatigue and jump distance works. The new structures should provide new catalyst and incentive for empires to class for the possibility of dank loot.

    If you tweak anything, I said increase the jump range of dreads and carriers a bit, just far enough to get into Stain. Also, it would be really cool of jump bridges allowed you the option to select which beacon you could jump to that is within range (5 ly is fine for jump beacons honestly). That would be fantastic. Oh, and please cap the fatgue at sever days instead of thirty. Thirty sucks hard.
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #160 - 2015-08-13 16:09:11 UTC
    Skia Aumer wrote:

    What I do not agree - is that you cannot interfere with the fleet jumping from station to station.
    1. You can kill the cyno.
    2. You can bubble the undock.
    3. You can set mobile cynojammer.

    Interfere != intercept, camping someone in a station, which is highly unlikely to succeed in the first place because they have capitals there to fight back, is different from, for instance, smartbombing someone out of a ceptor and back 30 jumps to their home.

    If you kill their cyno, they light it in another place or guard it. If you bubble the undock, you cannot prevent incoming ships and dictors are easily shot out of space with a swarm of Omni'd Acolytes and Warriors. Cyno jammers are easily destroyed.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.