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Share your experiences with Fozziesov!

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#401 - 2015-08-06 18:56:07 UTC
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.
The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.
Ganking is emergent gameplay. It's also not performed in space anyone has any claim on and you have the ability to be completely immune to it. I have my issues with the balance of that too, but using that as an excuse to support a mechanic which is boring by design is incredibly weak.

And no, trollceptors don't "force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active". They are a burden on active space more than they are on inactive. I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Snowmann
Arrow Industries
#402 - 2015-08-06 18:59:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So when you see (and you will) that this system create even more sov sprawl (because now renters can harden their own systems with pve) like Dominion did, will you come back to this forum and admit you were wrong?



If they are active there enough to keep their indices up, they should own it.

If we find it is too easy to maintain those levels, that could be adjusted.
The point of the mechanic is to ensure they can defend where they are active, but not as easily where they are not.

That can of course be gamed by players, but it can be easily adjusted by Devs as well, if needed.
Salvos Rhoska
#403 - 2015-08-06 19:01:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.


This doesnt make sense.

How is it a problem for active space to defend against a single interloper?

How is that somehow MORE a problem than responding in inactive space, where nobody is anyways?

Makes no sense, man.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#404 - 2015-08-06 19:03:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.



The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.



So when you see (and you will) that this system create even more sov sprawl (because now renters can harden their own systems with pve) like Dominion did, will you come back to this forum and admit you were wrong?


I dont know about him but when you get miners, gas huffers, and other industrialist working throughout your holdings i will proclaim that fozziesov was a total success since it got you to start using the systems you own instead of just sitting on them which is a primary goal of fozziesov.

If you do USE it, you SHOULD be able to hold it, so working as intended....

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#405 - 2015-08-06 19:05:29 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
It can take a long time annoying someone before they decide that fighting guerillas isnt worth it and given that some many alliances in EVE are already whining to the heavens about fozziesov, im pretty sure your will is already beginning to flounder.
Why would it flounder? It's boring, but it's what we need to do so we will do it. The mechanic will certainly reduce the likelihood of people wanting to seriously try to take sov, but we will undoubtedly keep growing and getting renters in. This is what you dont; seem to get, it's a boring mechanic, so it's bad for the game but if you think it's going to do anything to stop us, you're nuts. This is more likely to add more non-aggression pacts than split us up.

Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
So, when can u haz your stuff cuz you seem like you arent going to make it in the new nullsec and im anticipating a rage quit.
I absolutely guarantee you will ragequit long before I do. I mean you're already butthurt enough over the fact that we even exist.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Snowmann
Arrow Industries
#406 - 2015-08-06 19:05:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.
The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.
Ganking is emergent gameplay. It's also not performed in space anyone has any claim on and you have the ability to be completely immune to it. I have my issues with the balance of that too, but using that as an excuse to support a mechanic which is boring by design is incredibly weak.

And no, trollceptors don't "force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active". They are a burden on active space more than they are on inactive. I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.


I would suggest that Trollcepting is emergent game play as well.

Spin it how you want, both involve being forced into gameplay that you don't want, and each have their "said" purposes.

The merits of those will be continuously debated.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#407 - 2015-08-06 19:08:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.
This doesnt make sense.

How is it a problem for active space to defend against a single interloper?

How is that somehow MORE a problem than responding in inactive space, where nobody is anyways?

Makes no sense, man.
It makes perfect sense. Try chasing around a few hundred disposable ships fit specifically for evasion then tell me that trollceptors aren't a problem.

Let's make this simple. The old system was claimed to be bad because it lacked conflict. The new system has less conflict. Surely a pretend lawyer can understand that?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#408 - 2015-08-06 19:09:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.
The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.
Ganking is emergent gameplay. It's also not performed in space anyone has any claim on and you have the ability to be completely immune to it. I have my issues with the balance of that too, but using that as an excuse to support a mechanic which is boring by design is incredibly weak.

And no, trollceptors don't "force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active". They are a burden on active space more than they are on inactive. I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.


You don't half talk some rubbish. If a system is actively being used it will take somebody an hour to entosis. If you live in system and are being trolled by one interceptor for an hour and can't find one person willing to undock and counter because it is boring then you deserve any negative effects that occur from your own inaction.

It's quite clear that all this moaning about Fozzsov is just the big powers wanting an easy 'troll free' ride in null sec with as little hassle as possible to maintain their outlying underused or renter areas. Yet the same people actively organise events to troll people in high sec, Burn Amarr and Burn Jita events for example.

I've an idea for you, why not put up a small, regular 'anti-entosis' fleet that gets paid isk for patroling your outlying/renter regions? As a player who hates grinding for isk hunting and killing 'trollceptors' for payment would beat running anoms or mining any time of the day.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#409 - 2015-08-06 19:10:13 UTC
Snowmann wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So when you see (and you will) that this system create even more sov sprawl (because now renters can harden their own systems with pve) like Dominion did, will you come back to this forum and admit you were wrong?



If they are active there enough to keep their indices up, they should own it.

If we find it is too easy to maintain those levels, that could be adjusted.
The point of the mechanic is to ensure they can defend where they are active, but not as easily where they are not.

That can of course be gamed by players, but it can be easily adjusted by Devs as well, if needed.




"it can be adjusted" (Tweaked!) is something we've been told for 12 years. It's a dodge that people (and companies) tell people when they aren't willing to admit that the thing they are doing is fundamentally and fatally flawed. you should read that thread I just linked, you will notice a whole lot of players saying about Dominion what you are saying here about Fozzie Sov.

The question still stands, when history repeats , will you be the 1st poster ever to come back and say "you know, I was wrong about that"?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#410 - 2015-08-06 19:11:07 UTC
Snowmann wrote:
I would suggest that Trollcepting is emergent game play as well.

Spin it how you want, both involve being forced into gameplay that you don't want, and each have their "said" purposes.

The merits of those will be continuously debated.
LOL. Emergent gameplay directly created by CCPs new mechanics which they are still tweaking?

Quite honestly I think you would suggest anything just to disagree. It seems you are butthurt of being ganked and want to support a boring mechanics as some form of payback, even though most sove holders had nothing to do with whatever ship you lost in highsec.

Look, this discussion is moot. CCP and the CSM wanted feedback, they have the vast majority of players explaining to them all the reasons the mechanic is terrible. I can't imagine trollceptors will remain in existence much longer and if they do you'll only see us forming into even bigger coalitions.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#411 - 2015-08-06 19:14:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[quote=Snowmann]

Look, this discussion is moot. CCP and the CSM wanted feedback, they have the vast majority of players explaining to them all the reasons the mechanic is terrible. I can't imagine trollceptors will remain in existence much longer and if they do you'll only see us forming into even bigger coalitions.


'Vast majority of players'?

50% of this thread has just been you complaining about your own negative experience in support of a petition by a few rentier landlords out to protect their assets.

The 'vast majority' probably doesn't really give a rats ass about the changes and from what I see for every doom monger like yourself there is a person like me quite enjoying the new system.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#412 - 2015-08-06 19:15:15 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.



The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.



So when you see (and you will) that this system create even more sov sprawl (because now renters can harden their own systems with pve) like Dominion did, will you come back to this forum and admit you were wrong?


I dont know about him but when you get miners, gas huffers, and other industrialist working throughout your holdings i will proclaim that fozziesov was a total success since it got you to start using the systems you own instead of just sitting on them which is a primary goal of fozziesov.

If you do USE it, you SHOULD be able to hold it, so working as intended....


The issue is it currently weaponize ding dong ditch. I have to get to the door every single time because you might be someone "important" who want my SOV but most of the damn time, you just run away faster than any shotgun can be loaded... That is the stupid part about it. Having to defend your space to hold it is fine as long as either don't have to reply to those stupid ding dong ditch OR I get an effective way to stop you.

There is no point to preventing warp out on an inty if he can still burn away at 4k/s since even if you warped on him with probes, by the time you land and re-accelerate, he is already too far away.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#413 - 2015-08-06 19:16:16 UTC
Trollceptor coalition!

It's when things like this go live the way they do that I doubt anyone who works on making this game actually plays it (or takes any input from their cool stunt of marketing people they've let us elect).

That and the time where the new map popped up in a window obscuring your module icons.
Salvos Rhoska
#414 - 2015-08-06 19:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Iabsolutely guarantee you will ragequit long before I do. I mean you're already butthurt enough over the fact that we even exist.


Lets be real here for a second.

Alliances of thousands of alts and vast resources are complaining about single disposable frigates trespassing on your lawn.

Are you waiting for the government to call the National Guard and SWAT?
YOU are the government in your own space.
Deal with it. Do something. Adapt.

Honestly, if I had unregistered alt near your or in your organisation Id deliberately do this day in day out and carry a cargo extension just to collect all these tears.

Yes, Sov has problems.
Yes, this didnt fix them.
But is the now a problem? Not really.
As you and others have corroborated, this is no threat, merely an annoyance.

Lucas Kell wrote:
. Try chasing around a few hundred disposable ships fit specifically for evasion then tell me that trollceptors aren't a problem.


OOoohh.

So now we've gone from a single disposable frigate as earlier, to a few hundred?
Holy moly!
Well, that escalated quick!

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#415 - 2015-08-06 19:18:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Snowmann wrote:
What you are talking about is asymmetrical, or guerrilla warfare.
Attacking and not holding is the point of that type of warfare.
No, it's not. Guerilla warfare still has a strategic goal. Trollceptors don't. They are literally there to make the game less fun for sov holders. Whether you like sov holders or not, can you not see how it's bad game design to allow a mechanic to promote boring gameplay.
The same could be said about Hi Sec gankers. They make the game less fun for the targets, but it adds realism and shows you that you are never safe in Eve Online.

This is Eve, ganking is allowed, so should Trollceptors, they are the same types of warfare just with different targets and goals.

Gankers have been said to be counters to the isk printers called Lvl 4s.

Trollceptors force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active. It is a counter balance to Sov Sprawl that we have seen for years.

Trollceptors will probably result in some leaving the game, but so has Hi Sec ganking.
It is the nature of this game, and why it is considered so hard and visceral by many.
Ganking is emergent gameplay. It's also not performed in space anyone has any claim on and you have the ability to be completely immune to it. I have my issues with the balance of that too, but using that as an excuse to support a mechanic which is boring by design is incredibly weak.

And no, trollceptors don't "force Sov holders to only hold space where they are active". They are a burden on active space more than they are on inactive. I've got no problem with inactive space being easy to take, but to attack active sov you should have to commit moderate amounts of isk and effort.


Ganking is emergent game play, WTF?

Ganking is intended game play, seriously you think CCP was like OMG we didnt see ganking coming about when we made a game where if you undock ANYWHERE you can get blasted and in a game where by design many ships cannot defend themselves.

At CCPs headquarters 10 seconds after EVE launched: damn those crazy gamers we totally didnt see ganking ever coming about, caught us totally off gaurd!

Also, more on point, entossing isnt emergent game play either since it is a game mechanic hard coded into EVE.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#416 - 2015-08-06 19:18:31 UTC
Akballah Kassan wrote:
You don't half talk some rubbish. If a system is actively being used it will take somebody an hour to entosis. If you live in system and are being trolled by one interceptor for an hour and can't find one person willing to undock and counter because it is boring then you deserve any negative effects that occur from your own inaction.

It's quite clear that all this moaning about Fozzsov is just the big powers wanting an easy 'troll free' ride in null sec with as little hassle as possible to maintain their outlying underused or renter areas. Yet the same people actively organise events to troll people in high sec, Burn Amarr and Burn Jita events for example.

I've an idea for you, why not put up a small, regular 'anti-entosis' fleet that gets paid isk for patroling your outlying/renter regions? As a player who hates grinding for isk hunting and killing 'trollceptors' for payment would beat running anoms or mining any time of the day.
LOL, mate, you know how it is because you're being told to do it. You show up in an interceptor, then run away when someone show up. You just over a system and repeat. With a whole bunch of people doing just that, the mechanic is boring as sin. You know this and you support this, because your feelings of "grr goons" are more important to you than whether or not CCP put in crappy mechanics and wreck part of the game.

As for free ride, we already have a free ride. The mechanic is boring, but it's cheap to fight back. Far cheaper than it used to be.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#417 - 2015-08-06 19:19:23 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
ding dong ditch.


Rofl, now I feel bad for doing that as a kid. FozzieSov is some karma's revenge!
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#418 - 2015-08-06 19:19:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


There is no point to preventing warp out on an inty if he can still burn away at 4k/s since even if you warped on him with probes, by the time you land and re-accelerate, he is already too far away.


You don't need to chase him. Just grab a T1 jamming frig and cut his entosis off. Job done.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#419 - 2015-08-06 19:21:05 UTC
Akballah Kassan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
[quote=Snowmann]

Look, this discussion is moot. CCP and the CSM wanted feedback, they have the vast majority of players explaining to them all the reasons the mechanic is terrible. I can't imagine trollceptors will remain in existence much longer and if they do you'll only see us forming into even bigger coalitions.
'Vast majority of players'?

50% of this thread has just been you complaining about your own negative experience in support of a petition by a few rentier landlords out to protect their assets.

The 'vast majority' probably doesn't really give a rats ass about the changes and from what I see for every doom monger like yourself there is a person like me quite enjoying the new system.
This isn't the only thread. If you've read other thread, blogs, reddit, etc, you'd know that there's a considerable number of players with problems with this mechanic. Just because MOA got CTA'd to come to the forum and **** up all the threads doesn't mean that the mechanics have that much support.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#420 - 2015-08-06 19:24:39 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Yes, Sov has problems.
Yes, this didnt fix them.
But is the now a problem? Not really.
As you and others have corroborated, this is no threat, merely an annoyance.
The mechanic is boring. Boring gameplay is bad.

Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Ganking is emergent game play, WTF?
Yep. Sorry, didn't realise you were a newbie.

Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Also, more on point, entossing isnt emergent game play either since it is a game mechanic hard coded into EVE.
I know it's not, that's why I said it wasn't.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.