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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#421 - 2015-07-21 10:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Hayes
No to SP reallocation!

Yes to limited amounts of SP being able to be purchased by plex, like already mentioned 1 months worth of SP = 1 plex, can only be done a fixed amount of time per year like a maximum of 4 for 1 month for each quarter of a year subscription. or just twice.

Bring back professions!
Like in the Eve of old when choosing your heritage and school mattered, giving new players a jump start of basic skills trained in their chosen field of profession would make it a lot more appealing for new players to stay beyond their trial period! I believe the old system had around 800k sp distributed , this could probably be extended to 1.2 mill SP given the new skills that have entered the game!
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#422 - 2015-07-21 10:50:58 UTC
No to SP purchase via PLEX or RM

Yes to SP remap!

Blink

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#423 - 2015-07-21 17:11:08 UTC
Ok, how about this as a compromise?

Rebuy skill points

Create a new skill, specific to eventually being able to re-use the points for other skills.

Points placed in the rebuy skill, inflicts a drain that point for point draws out of an existing skill set.
(During this period, the donor skill set becomes diminished step by step, as it's points are withdrawn)

To be clear:
1. The normal SP accumulation is being placed in this Rebuy pool
2. In a draining queue, like the opposite of a normal skill queue, skills can be set to be drained as they had been gained, on a basis with points entering the Rebuy skill from normal accumulation as follows:
Skill point lost in old skill: 1 point
Skill point gained in Rebuy skill: .5 (Half a point)
Basically you get 1 unspent Rebuy SP for every 2 points lost this way.

The rebuy skill, with it's pool of points being drawn from two sources as described above, can then be used to purchase other skills.
This would be done at the exchange rate of 1 rebuy points to 1 normal skill point.

Purchase a skill, example.

You set a skill to drain, and after 2,000 points gained normally, (plus the 1,000 gained by skill draining), you are ready to move forward.
You have a total of 3,000 points, with a purchasing value of 3,000 points equivalent.

You want a skill that costs 3,000 points. Normally, at this point in regular skilling, you would have gained 2,000 points.
But due to the draining of a skill accompanying the Rebuy point accumulation, you lost 2,000 points from the donor skill, translating into 1,000 extra available points to spend.

WHY LOSE HALF THE DRAINED POINTS??

1. You are gaining back points you already spent once. This has a cost.
2. You are bypassing the training time, effectively, by being able to decide where to spend points after the fact. This has a cost.

Thoughts?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#424 - 2015-07-21 18:09:18 UTC
For a(ny) forum moderator, I'm adding this comment for historical reference and to give context for the forum's topic Cool

Neural remap, PLEX and the way forward:

source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/neural-remap-plex-and-the-way-forward/

Comments: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1419106

Quote:
NEURAL REMAP, PLEX AND THE WAY FORWARD
2010-11-22 16:29 By CCP Zulu | Comments

You've probably all seen or heard about the changes that hit the test server last month where you could buy a neural remap (redistribution of attributes) with a PLEX. The ensuing community discussion and a whole heap of Council of Stellar Management discussions we had, both during their visit to CCP earlier in October and, through the magic of the internet, has led us to revisit that specific change and helped us form a holistic strategy for virtual goods sales moving forward.

Phew, that was a long sentence.

There are two things we want to communicate in this blog, in response to all the discussion that's been going on:

First, we've decided to shelve all the changes to neural remaps we had planned. We now have no plans to change things from the way they are currently on Tranquility. No PLEX for remaps, no ISK for remaps, nothing. All code has been reverted, no new code has been written. Nothing will change.

Second, we wanted to explain our thinking a little more. It‘s always been the intent of CCP to continue diversifying EVE Online's business model and we‘ve been looking at various options to do so. This started with the introduction of PLEX, which was an innovative way for players to exchange in-game assets for subscription on a fully player driven marketplace. Since we introduced the PLEX item we've monitored its trading, price and velocity closely. It's now time for us to take the next evolutionary step.

It‘s clear that it‘s the will of the community to keep virtual goods sales outside the spectrum of what we classify as the "merit economy". That refers to skills gained over time or items that have a gameplay impact. So after discussions, designs, brainstorming and all sorts of processes we‘ve come up with a strategy that we‘ve already polished with the help of the CSM and would now want to present to the larger community.

Virtual goods sales in EVE Online will evolve through sales of vanity items, first in Incarna but later in-space features. The scope will be (and there‘s no design has been done around this, we‘re just talking strategy now) that anything that doesn‘t affect gameplay directly can be, potentially, sold for PLEX or other means. Ideas that have come up include Incarna clothing and furniture, logos on spaceships and swapping out portraits. This is by no means a comprehensive list, nor is it a commitment that said items will be available for sale, I mention these as an example for what type of items we‘re thinking about.

It‘s important to clarify that virtual goods sales isn‘t an arbitrary - or particularly greedy - decision. There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out. Diversifying the business model allows us to offer our players the services and features they desire in ways that are conducive to how they wish to spend their entertainment dollars. The result is that we provide a wider range of options to our subscribers which, in turn, leaves us better positioned to react to future seismic shifts in the market.

If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.

CCP Zulu

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
DTBA Fonulique
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2015-07-22 07:06:20 UTC
I would agree with a remap as soon as you get to 10mil sp.

When I started eve I trained into mining .... I can fly hulk and everything... What a waste of sp it was for me

I enjoy pvp so much more... Make way more isk running wh then mining or afk mining .

Now I am stuck with sp in mining that I don't use. Yes its my own mistake but I never played eve before. So 1 Remap would be bloody nice
Sarrian Calda
Perkone
Caldari State
#426 - 2015-07-23 03:59:41 UTC
My 0.02 ISKies:

NO to Purchasing of SP outside of the current skill-learning.

Reason: Because learning is a time-based process, and we should not go Matrix. By allowing this, it would effectively turn EVE into a pay-to-win game as it will allow everything to be achievable with ISK/PLEX. Not enough ISK? Buy PLEX and sell/exchange for ISK. Not enough SP? Buy PLEX and purchase SP. What's the fun in it anymore? Why have we veterans stayed here for so long just to see new players who are filthy rich in real life climb on top of us like nobody's business? And if this is allowed, the players who have been breeding characters for sale will be very, very unhappy.

So, NO to gaining of SP outside of the current mechanism.
If it involves some kind of SP booster that boosts the gain of SP over time, I could accept that, as long as that booster is made available to everyone.


However, YES to SP remapping.

But we can't just remap SP anyhow, right? It would defeat the purpose of remapping attributes. If we can remap SP, then there is no point in remapping attributes as we can always map the gained SP away into other skills and continue training that Titan V that will never be V (figuratively speaking).

Or, perhaps we can do it this way:
1) Remap Attributes once a year (current mechanism)
2) Remap SP once a year, but Skills with remapped SP cannot be trained until those remapped SPs are returned to original skills.

i.e. I have Cruise Missile Specialization V. I have Torpedoes V but no torp spec. I want to devote my time to stealth bomber, so I remap the SP in Cruise Spec to Torp Spec.

However, I cannot train Cruise Spec because it was full, and the SP was just temporarily mapped to Torp Spec.
I cannot train Torp Spec either because there are remapped SP there. Attempting to improve on something temporary is just gonna make my neurons go haywire.

In a sense, this is like "virtual skill point". I temporarily "loan" these SPs to another skill to allow that skill to utilize those SPs.

This may be represented in a YELLOW bar in the skill level to show remapped skills visually, and a separate indicator to show how much SPs are remapped TO a skill, and a RED bar/indicator to show how much SPs are remapped FROM a skill.


Other restrictions will be up to CCP's discretion, such as whether to allow only complete remapping of skill levels or partial remaps. e.g. If it must be complete remap of skill levels, then a Rank 4 Level 5 skill can only be remapped to another Rank 4 Level 5 skill, and not 4x Rank 1 Level 5 skills.

If partial remaps are allowed, then perhaps it would be prompting the player on how much SP to take away from a trained skill. This skill will become locked from further training, and the SP will be moved to the Remapped SP pool (separate from the Free SP pool that CCP gives due to various reasons). Player can then apply these Remapped SP to other skills, and those skills will become locked from further training until those remapped SPs are removed.


Also, we might want to consider preventing a base skill from getting removed completely if there are upper-tier skills that require it. For example, one cannot remove Frigate V if one still has any one of the T2 frigate skills that require Frigate V, and so on. To remap Frigate V, one has to drop all skills that require Frigate V. However, remapping of all skill points from a skill does not mean to unlearn that skill completely. Again, the SPs are just T-loaned. Hence, as long as the skills are not unlearned, the base requirement for those skills must be intact. Hence, you can never drop Frigate V so long as you have injected any of the T2 frigate skills, etc.

We may also want to consider not allowing players to inject new skills just because they manage to reach the required skill level for the new skills.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2015-07-23 04:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
I do like your idea about same Ranking level of skill being remaped into equal level of Rank.

Rank 4 limitation is not required. Make is simple:
Rank1 -> Rank 1 etc etc.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Sarrian Calda
Perkone
Caldari State
#428 - 2015-07-23 18:09:44 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
I do like your idea abot same Ranking level of skill being remaped into equal level of Rank.

Rank 4 limitatation is not required. Make is simple:
Rank1 -> Rank 1 etc etc.


Thank you =)

Yes, the Rank 4 example is just an example. Ideally, the Rank restriction should be coupled with the level restriction as well. Meaning, if the SP remap must be a complete transfer between two skills, that means the size of the SP pool to be transferred must be the same.

i.e. a Rank 4 Level 3 skill can only transfer to another Rank 4 Level 3 skill. It cannot transfer to a Rank 4 level 4 skill, or a Rank 3 level 3 skill because there would be insufficient or leftover SP from the initial skill.

This may create a little "minigame" of sorts in the sense that it limits the player to the magnitude of the change possible (so we won't see a sudden surge of supercap pilots or omni-race pilots) unless they already have the skills to be so.

The restriction of remapping pre-requisite skills for learned skills and injecting new skills because of remapped SPs would further limit sudden polymorphing of a pilot's base characteristics.

To give it a scenario, we have a pilot who has undergone intensive training in multiple aspects of combat. But as situation called for, the pilot is primarily a Gallente ship flyer, hence he had his Gallente skills honed to V. But later, the doctrine changed and now he needs to switch to Caldari. Since his Caldari skills are already at IV, it would be easy to just remap the Gallente V skills to Caldari V. Small change, big advantage when you factor in the same possibility available to every pilot in the faction.

To put it in real life human terms, we have someone who is skilled in all sorts of handheld weapons. Swords, Mace, Bow, Crossbow, Rifle, Handgun, Grenades, Shurikens, etc. He is called to the frontline and deployed to be an assault trooper. He focused his practice and skills into using heavy assault weapons, such as rifles, machineguns, grenades, and other assault-type weapons. But later on he got stranded deep in enemy territory and he must rely on stealth to escape. He would then focus his skills on using weapons like bow and arrow, daggers, throwing knives, etc. This could go on for weeks and months, and we all know that a lack of practice generally would dull a person's senses to a certain situation. The experience sticks, but the skill level will not be at its peak due to lack of practice.

So, this is my suggestion if the SP remap would be restricted to complete transfers of SP between learned skills.

For skills that are partially trained, perhaps the SP transfer can still take place, with the remaining un-transferred SP staying in the initial skill. Since the inital skill cannot receive SP transfer from other skills, the idea of "complete skill level transfer" still sticks.

Addendum: While I mentioned that a skill cannot be unlearned, perhaps it may allow a skill to go to zero SP. Not sure if this would impact much, but I don't think we have many level 1 and level 0 skills lying around anyway.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#429 - 2015-07-23 19:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Destitute Tehol Beddict
I'm going to say no to any form of "buying" SP with PLeX/Aurum - as in buying them gives you instant access to a certain number of unallocated skill points)

I am opposed to the idea of people "extracting" skill points from skills (you would need to train them again) and selling those unmapped skill points to the market, it still gives the option to pay to win but this ones more palatable cause of the "time" is still passing. (Opposed)

I wish that Attributes / Implants (and I guess need for remaps) would just go away, it's simply an annoying mechanic.

I will say though I really like the passive skill system, but have my moments some "active" elements could probably be added for the benefit of the game. Many times when I was a new player I wished that this skill could train faster or get bonus XP, because I am actually using X weapons system, or Z ship "actually playing the game". I think that some "active" character progression on TOP of the passive skill system would be a benefit. Sure this opens the door to botting / etc (but that's against the rules :p) .

Some ways to do this would be a Challenge / Achievement / Opportunities type system. HEH you killed 100 things with a Merlin heres 5000 SP towards Caldari Frigate. This incentivizes playing the game for new players (adds a sense of progress <--> this in my opinion is a crucial point that's missing in the early game. Sure the system can be exploited, for example if someone is training an alt and one of the challenges was "Kill another player" - one can use an alt etc. These are holes, and it is not perfect.. but at least the person training the alt is actually playing the game :p Shocked. (Maybe even give some bonus to flying in low sec, high sec (in space no cloaky) 1.1x, 1.2x skill training. highsec being 1x)

I now the last 2 paragraphs are not popular, and if it never happens it never happens I just think it would add something interesting dynamics to the game.

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#430 - 2015-07-24 07:10:59 UTC
Ah yes do NOTHING for the new guys and just cater to the old farts, that is sure the recipe to keep EvE going for years to come.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#431 - 2015-07-25 08:13:48 UTC
Just my one cent

- allow all players a SP remap once.
- players can't activate it while in space
- everything players have related to SP lost would be put on hold (industry, PI etc. )

-then give everyone a very big and happy middle finger.

hugs and kisses.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#432 - 2015-07-25 21:06:51 UTC
Here the view of a player who has 150mil SP

First if you break the 80mil (5years in EVE) barrier and you have skilled like most people you can fly 90% of all ships.
The first 20mil can be hard if you spend them on lvl5 skills you do not need in the begining
I skilled a railgun Rokh after 3month in the game because it was the fleetship of the time and had to go ratting with it because I could not fly anything else. NOT FUN.
Over the time I learned that skill time prevents us from making stupid mistakes.
If you understand you have limitied skillpoints to spend then you research what you want to spend them on.

If you are 5years in the game and reached the 80mil then have a baisc idea of the game which protects you.
Also at 80mil you will run into the question what to skill next because you already have so much.
At 150mil I do not know what to skill so I skill everything to lvl 4 then to lvl5 .

If you want a high skillpoint character spend 50bil ISK on the market and you get one.
It will not make you a good player and you will waste billions of isk because you donot understand the game.

So I say no the SP buying or remapping because it helps to learn the game.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#433 - 2015-07-26 03:24:34 UTC
Once upon as time an aspireing young lady made her ultimate sacrifice in a clone facility in Todaki. Not only did she become immortal but modern technology made it possible for her to steer the most modern generation of warships but also learning with enhanced speed.

From the perspective of a new player with 50.000 skillpoints this always sounds like the more experienced players are talking down to them - "but you already have all the skills.."

Yes we have.

Now think of it this way. Years ago when cellphones still had a dialing pad and five rows to write a text message in we got a round disc which contained the contents of a world that kept us here for all this time.

We started like you with 50.000 skillpoints, we didn't have guides, we didn't know anyone and to top it all of, we couldn't do anything - or could we?

When I became a capsuleer in fall 2006 I didn't have the impression that I couldn't do anything just because of low skillpoints. My friends started in 2004 and were 'ahead' of me.
So I thought, well they had to do the very same thing that I am doing right now. Boring? Nope, not in the slightest.

While it was upsetting that 9000 isk didn't buy you much, I did some exploring (not the exploration thing we have now) as in exploring the client.
How does that work? Easy, press every button and see what it does Smile

12 Minutes into the game I was investigation that market thing, which I used as source of information of everything since, you know, 9000 isk doesn't buy you much..
So I spend the first three days investigating modules, ships, blueprints, commodities and reading all the information tabs I could get my hands on.
Some modules didn't quite make sence to me so I took the liberty to buy one of those and- nothing Sad need to have engineering II.
Okay get engineering book and train, while asking my agent in Isaziwa for work. ETA on engineering II is about an hour. So accepting this mission and make those pirates disappear - cool stuff, shouldn't at all be difficult ( it's only a level one agent..).

Into the mission..
Hmm.. Only three of you and my unstoppable two launcher Merlin - haha! I will.. ohoh.. need to go, this isn't going so well.
0% shield, 33% armor - ah warp drive- what is it now?? - "Your capacitor is empty" - Yeah, yeah, whatever just get my outta here!!
Pheww, ship rescued. Okay it's only 23AU to the station, no biggy. Capacitor looks almost full, so here we go again. "Warp drive active" - "Your capacitor is empty" - Sad Oh well, next time I make it, only 19AU left.

Finally docked at the station. Okay repair my boat! "your repair bill is 92.456isk" - WHAT? Is this station crazy? Okay, damn you station! Now leta kill those Guristas, they will pay for what they did to my boat..

Two hours later, mission complete. Payout 65.000 isk. Yeay, I rich Big smile.

Hmm.. my friends are doing a mining op in Autaris and are in trouble, need to go and help. Seven jumps away. SEVEN.

Almost an hour later I arrive in Autaris. "Come to asteroid belt V - 2." "On my way." Two Guristas attacking my friends?? Ha! Not today Guristas!
The Hulk lives to mine another day. "Skill training completed" Awesome, must go to Eitu and pick up this module and fit it.

Dear newbie,
this is only one of my adventures I had in my very first week. I was part of something. I was important to players that have been here much longer than I.
Skillpoints only help you to fit a boat or research a blueprint but the adventures that come with them are priceless.

No amount of starting skillpoints and no amount of remaps will make up for them. Take the time to make your own adventures.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Will Fireblade
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#434 - 2015-07-26 10:04:01 UTC
YES to SP remap with a limit of no more than 256000 SP per month.
NO to SP by plex purchase.

Let's hold hands and share our feelings
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#435 - 2015-07-26 11:59:20 UTC
This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#436 - 2015-07-29 14:47:48 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference.



this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums.
Messir Astaroth
Chemosh Ascendancy
#437 - 2015-08-01 13:21:30 UTC
NO.
Ella Echerie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2015-08-01 16:06:08 UTC
Skill remapping in a persistent world sandbox could have compounding effects, unless it was limited to the degree where it would be pointless. A huge part of EvE is actions and consequences, unlike all the fluffy theme park MMOs where you need to respec to enjoy all the different meaningless activities.

The skill system we have requires patience and can be frustrating but it's also quite rewarding and probably my favorite out of 25yrs of playing rpgs.

Also no to purchasing skill points, pretty much for the same reasons.

I do think newbies should have accelerated training for a certain period of time (maybe a month or few, or up to a certain amount of skillpoints)
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#439 - 2015-08-01 18:18:05 UTC
Ella Echerie wrote:
Skill remapping in a persistent world sandbox could have compounding effects, unless it was limited to the degree where it would be pointless. A huge part of EvE is actions and consequences, unlike all the fluffy theme park MMOs where you need to respec to enjoy all the different meaningless activities.

The skill system we have requires patience and can be frustrating but it's also quite rewarding and probably my favorite out of 25yrs of playing rpgs.

Also no to purchasing skill points, pretty much for the same reasons.

I do think newbies should have accelerated training for a certain period of time (maybe a month or few, or up to a certain amount of skillpoints)


There is no Butterfly Effect in this game, sorry.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#440 - 2015-08-03 18:50:34 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference.



this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums.


So basically what your saying is this thread serves as a land fill for trash. Thanks for clarifying.