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Walking in stations

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Author
Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
#1081 - 2015-07-31 07:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuronaga
Wasn't really a lack of content that killed Incarna as it was a lack of content, plus breaking the game, plus internal news letter threatening to break the game further.


Really, there was a lot of emotion going on in those times but it wasn't simply because flying content was taking a small break. That was merely the pebble that summoned the avalanche.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1082 - 2015-07-31 07:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I like the part where he was directly contradicted by a CCP quote from Incarna, that apparently everyone already knew about but him. They outright say that the colossal failure of Incarna had resources directly drawn from the rest of the game, which 100% contradicts his statements.

And still he doubles down and claims he was right all along. The perils of intellectual dishonesty, ladies and gentlemen.
Actually the quote said that only 2 of the 9 teams were from EVE, and specifically said "So the resource cost from EVE is very contained". You guys seem to be trying to claim that EVE halted while the entire company focused on WiS, which is wrong. It's also blindingly obvious you have some personal dislike for the guy. Why don't you take your anger/butthurt/whatever to some other thread rather than attempting to derail this one with childish attacks?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1083 - 2015-07-31 07:57:52 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Compared to Revelations, Trinity, Empyrean Age, Apocraphya and Dominion, Tyrannis and Incarna offered very little in the way of spaceship flight. CCP warned us that that would be the case, and promised that Incarna would be fantastic. They delivered on little for FIS pilots and failed to deliver the games, meeting rooms and chance for character conflict they talked up for WIS.

You can keep talking up Tyrannis and the other "20 patches", personally I was not very impressed with Eve Gate, these forums, ingame calendar or the charcater creater (which was prep work for Incarna) etc.
I disagree, there were heaps of features. Less than some other expansions? Sure, significantly so? No.

Effectively what you're saying here is you didn't particularly like the features they added in those expansions, therefore they didn't exist.

Bear in mind that there are less people working on EVE FiS content now than there were during Incarna because they've laid loads of them off.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#1084 - 2015-07-31 08:04:35 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
Wasn't really a lack of content that killed Incarna as it was a lack of content, plus breaking the game, plus internal news letter threatening to break the game further.


Really, there was a lot of emotion going on in those times but it wasn't simply because flying content was taking a small break. That was merely the pebble that summoned the avalanche.


Oh definitely. I completely agree. My posts over the last page have focused solely on one aspect that Infinity Ziona claimed an unvalidated level of expertise in.

I was personally disappointed with lack of FIS, but happy to see Eve develop WIS. I felt betrayed when the actuality was so divergent from their promises. I was very frustrated that the WIS they did deliver just detracted from ease of spaceship flight. I was confused by the monacle prices. The newsletter made me bitter. Would I mind if WIS was developed? No. I'd be happy to see something new along that line. Do I trust CCP to deliver WIS in a meaningful way. No ******* way.
Cancel Align NOW
The Distillery
Commonwealth Vanguard
#1085 - 2015-07-31 08:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cancel Align NOW
Lucas Kell wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Compared to Revelations, Trinity, Empyrean Age, Apocraphya and Dominion, Tyrannis and Incarna offered very little in the way of spaceship flight. CCP warned us that that would be the case, and promised that Incarna would be fantastic. They delivered on little for FIS pilots and failed to deliver the games, meeting rooms and chance for character conflict they talked up for WIS.

You can keep talking up Tyrannis and the other "20 patches", personally I was not very impressed with Eve Gate, these forums, ingame calendar or the charcater creater (which was prep work for Incarna) etc.
I disagree, there were heaps of features. Less than some other expansions? Sure, significantly so? No.

Effectively what you're saying here is you didn't particularly like the features they added in those expansions, therefore they didn't exist.

Bear in mind that there are less people working on EVE FiS content now than there were during Incarna because they've laid loads of them off.


Name these Tyrannis features I have overlooked, I acknowledged the ones that I remember, so don't effectively say otherwise for me.

Yes there are a lot less CCP employees now because CCP borrowed money to make WoD, Dust and WIS along with future development of Eve Online. When things went pear shaped in 2011 it was assured that a large number would be laid off. Another reason not to trust them to attempt to do more WIS stuff now.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1086 - 2015-07-31 09:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
Quote:
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ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1087 - 2015-07-31 09:34:18 UTC
Avvy wrote:

Assuming each station has its own environment.

More than a 1000 in Jita, probably more than half never ever leave the ship or cabin except to look around once.

There would be other stations empty, some with 1 or 2 people in them others with 10 or 12 other with maybe 25 -30.

Each different station would require a different internal structure.

There really would be a lot of work involved to do it properly, of course this will depend upon how much they've already done if any.

I just find it hard to see that they can justify the cost of completing it, without drastically cutting corners. By doing so end up with a substandard addition to the game.


In all likelihood, CCP probably were planning a series of generic rooms, that would have appeared in an identical configuration in every single station, if we were lucky, in four racial skins.

I recommend people look up "orbital stations" in SWTOR. Half the planets you visit have a "spaceport" on the surface, and your ship goes to a hanger there. The other half, being worlds the faction is mid-invading (for example the Imperials have a Spaceport on Balmorra, the Republic use an Orbital Station, and visa-versa on Taris), or being inhospitable (Hoth being a prime example), your ship goes to an orbital space station, and you catch a shuttle from there to the surface. These orbital stations are identical - same layout, same hanger positions, just the NPC's are occasionally moved around, and sometimes the flags, piles of crates, and pot plants are in different places. There is one exception to this, and thats for Makeb, which is the main planet on their first expansion of the game, and even then, when you look you realise it is still the same base model with a couple of extra rooms added, and a few pillars and larger furniture pieces to break up some of the larger spaces. When you play SWTOR, by about the third orbital station you have stopped paying attension to a single feature of it - it has stopped being a location of any merit, its just a couple of corridors and transition points that are delaying you getting from your ship to the important location.

That is for a game that is entirely about avatars walking around; its the main feature. And that game has probably only got ~20 or so of these orbital stations - the Kimotoro Constellation in the Forge (Jita, Perimetre, Niyabainen, New Caldari, Maurasi, etc) has twice that number of stations alone. Even if they only did one matching internal layout for all stations of the same model, with 3-4 per race (as a massive under-estimate), Pirate faction stations, Outposts, there is still far more station types in EvE than there is orbital stations in the entirety of SWTOR). To expect a higher standard from CCP for a periphery element to the game, with multiple orders of magnitude more instances of them is insanity.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1088 - 2015-07-31 09:35:33 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Name these Tyrannis features I have overlooked, I acknowledged the ones that I remember, so don't effectively say otherwise for me.
Planetary Interaction for example. The ore rebalance was pretty big one for me. The thing is, whether you remember changes or liked the changes is irrelevant. FiS features were still being made, even as part of Incarna itself.

Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Yes there are a lot less CCP employees now because CCP borrowed money to make WoD, Dust and WIS along with future development of Eve Online. When things went pear shaped in 2011 it was assured that a large number would be laid off. Another reason not to trust them to attempt to do more WIS stuff now.
WoD was in development long before Incarna. It's not all down to Incarna that their business suffered. Most of the Incarna screeching was from the overly entitled players demanding more from their free expansions and from anger against microtransactions (which amusingly are now in exactly as they wanted them to be, and yet now everyone is fine with them).

The point I was making about the teams size though is that people keep complaining that not enough people were working on EVE and yet right now there are less people working on EVE than during Incarna, and that's seemingly fine. Their development processes have changed and there's no reason to believe that if they chose to work on WiS now that they'd have any trouble working on FiS features at the same time. Personally I hope they close the lid on DUST, get Valkyrie out, then move resource from those two teams into working on WiS features. Then again I've been hoping for a long time they'll look at making mining, missioning and salvaging more involving and interesting mechanics too and that's not happened either.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Borascus
#1089 - 2015-07-31 10:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Union Over Internet : U O I (The self entitlement crowd, you owe I)

If you were present before and after the incarna debacle, you could sense the culture that a group or groups were attempting to display to CCP hf. that their union was capable of facilitating a profound change in the revenue stream through discussion of the finer things in EVE until people didn't like them, it was reductionist, brought to a head with the GiG moment.

(Reductionist; a term usually used in relation to 'race to the bottom' concessions)

We're all in the real world, there is a lot of opportunity in EVE and outside of EVE. Groups that constantly pander for simplicity are only capable of a disruptive conclusion. The ones that pledged to keep it interesting are the only members of these groups that form fleets / corps / chat topics with a view to keeping the game interesting while you play.

They do do more than me, they have my respect.

They do have a legacy of copycats that still want simple, there is still a need for interesting content. The game has a cult following, that draws crowds. MMO players like to see development before they join so they know they wont exhaust all the content, forever.


With all that said, time is precious. I feel it would be fitting for EVE Online to develop further, they are in the Museum of Modern Art after all.

The group that were against microtransactions likely have bling fits and ship SKINs now. When microtransactions were opposed the opposition used the topic as pub ammunition to incite a response, now it's just a necessary display of wealth.

CCP hf. did well there, as the microtransaction model was being rolled out in other games at the start of the f2p rush.

Walking in stations doesn't need 50 individual layouts for all the variations of station present in game, right now there is an opportunity for just 5 - boarding the Drifter Hives.

There is an opportunity for another 20, stations on the boundary of Empire space.

There is also an opportunity to have the same layout present in each station with a different overlay, due to the proximity of the environment to the Captains quarters.

It's not necessarily 'vague is best' in station design, and the practical implementation of SKINs proves that models can display various types of design with the same underlying dimensions.


How that would compare with SW:TOR is quite simple - context, the same corridors and rooms with different skins is the bread and butter WiS feel. The situational developments like tackling a hive, or a sleeper preservation conduit, can be bespoke in line with the development cycle of lore content.

SW:TOR wiki wrote:
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made,[9][10] though if marketing costs are included, it is eclipsed by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.

...

but has remained profitable


This relates to a game that was entirely avatar driven, with the majority of player time spent amongst the, reportedly, stagnant scenery.

Yes it equates to 20 Months of EVE Online revenue, and is untenable, it shouldn't cost as much as it is a limited scope, it also does not require the planet environments, the ship coding, the extra details.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1090 - 2015-07-31 11:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Lucas Kell wrote:
... Most of the Incarna screeching was from the overly entitled players demanding more from their free expansions and from anger against microtransactions (which amusingly are now in exactly as they wanted them to be, and yet now everyone is fine with them). ...
I have never used the NEX store. I might at some point to sell the free AUR.
My anger was over my 8800 GTX card that Incarna melted along with a lot of other people's cards without so much as a "We are terribly sorry but the TOS means we are not liable and we can not be sure what we actually broke and would need to replace anyway. We do apologise and regret not doing deeper testing."

Then there was the whole thing where WoD developers made 3x Captain's Quarters in a fraction of the time that the EVE developers made one, so that indicates that wrong skill sets were applied to the job.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Scarlett Anstian
The-Enclave
#1091 - 2015-07-31 11:15:58 UTC
We have WiS already but we are limited to our captains quarters. So why anyone would be against working on it further is beyond me because its not going anywhere.

If you are against WiS you have already lost so why not help make suggestions to improve the crap we have currently.
Borascus
#1092 - 2015-07-31 11:16:55 UTC
The element discussed in this video as well; with respect to the player(s) / ship / ships boarding the environment is covered with the new structure shields for structures like citadels.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1093 - 2015-07-31 11:24:59 UTC
If we count the CQ related headings vs Non CQ headings in Incarna patch notes we find:

2 CQ (granted CQ is a big one)
37 Non CQ

Nuff Said :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Avvy
Doomheim
#1094 - 2015-07-31 11:35:00 UTC
Scarlett Anstian wrote:
We have WiS already but we are limited to our captains quarters. So why anyone would be against working on it further is beyond me because its not going anywhere.

If you are against WiS you have already lost so why not help make suggestions to improve the crap we have currently.



Personally I'm not against it or for it.

If it ended up as a substandard addition I could just avoid it, so that in itself wouldn't be much of an issue.

For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required.

Borascus
#1095 - 2015-07-31 11:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If we count the CQ related headings vs Non CQ headings in Incarna patch notes we find:

2 CQ (granted CQ is a big one)
37 Non CQ

Nuff Said :)



That signature of yours made me smile.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#1096 - 2015-07-31 11:51:20 UTC
Scarlett Anstian wrote:
We have WiS already but we are limited to our captains quarters. So why anyone would be against working on it further is beyond me because its not going anywhere.

If you are against WiS you have already lost so why not help make suggestions to improve the crap we have currently.

I can only give my perspective on that, but I'm one of those that doesn't currently see benefit to further development of WiS.

My basic reason is that I haven't personally seen any suggestion for additions to WiS that provide any new meaningful gameplay that we can't already access from our ships.

From the existing CQ I can access my inventory, the fitting window, contracts, the market, mission agents, PI, Corporation, etc. using the UI of the CQ. However, the NEOCOM is still right there and provides quicker access to all of those things.

So aside from the one time, 'oh that's cool' immersion factor, the rest of the time the CQ interface just gets in the way and makes things slower compared to remaining in my ship/pod and accessing all of those things via the NEOCOM.

Some people might get a great kick out of sitting in a bar having a drink.

But for me, aside from just doing it once, there's no meaningful new gameplay in "Scipio sits down and has a drink" sort of additions. They are fluff with no value to the things I play the game for.

Great if others would find meaningful ways to use them. If they want to push for additional WiS features, I'm not going to argue against that, but neither am I going to argue to support it. Until something meaningful is proposed that we can't do from our ships, I'm totally agnostic to any additional WiS features.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1097 - 2015-07-31 11:56:06 UTC
Avvy wrote:
... For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required.
Well to start off, it could be a far more immersive way to kill off those 3rd party gambling websites.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Avvy
Doomheim
#1098 - 2015-07-31 11:58:07 UTC
There is another way of looking at this.

What do most people seem to do in this game, seems to me that the number 1 pastime in this game is collecting isk.


So for stations to be used more they have to have a way for players to make isk. If players are in stations making safe isk they're not outside stations engaged in other activities.
Scarlett Anstian
The-Enclave
#1099 - 2015-07-31 11:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlett Anstian
Avvy wrote:
Scarlett Anstian wrote:
We have WiS already but we are limited to our captains quarters. So why anyone would be against working on it further is beyond me because its not going anywhere.

If you are against WiS you have already lost so why not help make suggestions to improve the crap we have currently.



Personally I'm not against it or for it.

If it ended up as a substandard addition I could just avoid it, so that in itself wouldn't be much of an issue.

For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required.


I think this is the real issue most people have. We love the game CCP has made, which is why we are all here, so I'd say let's see what they can do with WiS. It might not be pretty to start off with (currently its terrible) but in the future who knows how good it could be. They are the video game developers and I think we should all start trusting them a bit more with where they want to take EVE.

Let's face it we imagine what EVE Online could be like in an ideal world it would definitely involve some level of WiS that we don't currently have. I just want to see these changes sooner rather than later. If that means we don't get 100% of the devs working on space mechanics for 6 months, so be it. The game is great already, It's not perfect but it never will be. Someone will always have something that they want 'fixing'.

This just happens to be the thing in most need of fixing Big smile

@ Scipio - You make a great point and I can't argue against it. But would slowing down the time it takes for you to fit a ship (for example) be such a terrible thing if you did it in a way which was far more immersive? For me the answer is yes, but I do understand your point and I guess for lots of people they would see this as just adding 'meaningless fluff' that gets in the way of pew pew.

I'd like to think one day EVE isnt known for spreadsheets in space, but a fully immersive experience. That's just my two cents though, I understand that not everyone would want things to be slowed down.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#1100 - 2015-07-31 12:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Avvy wrote:
... For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required.
Well to start off, it could be a far more immersive way to kill off those 3rd party gambling websites.

I doubt it.

That could occur two ways:

1. In game CCP developed gambling rooms; or
2. Removal of those 3rd party options from the game all together.

If CCP were to develop in game pokers rooms, lotteries, slot machines, etc. that would immediately classify Eve as a game that " encourage or teach gambling" under the PEGI system that CCP are already part of and legally, those aspects of the game may not be suitable to play in all countries, requiring CCP to comply with pieces of legislation that they might have no clue even exist.

In relation to removing that options from the game all together, well that doesn't seem possible. They already operate within the existing game. Adding WiS won't remove them.