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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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Author
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#921 - 2015-07-24 04:44:14 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
You'll notice his corp is "Say No to Features".

That set aside.
What in the actual F#CK???

If you fly a Merlin straight at a Tornado, you will be blasted into Oblivion.
If that Merlin is also running MWD, you might as well eject, because that Tornado will 1 shot you off the field.

As far as his suggestion of "non-realistic" scenarios.
I have blasted frigs off the field with an Tach fitted Oracle several times.
I can counter tracking issues by countering traversal, I can catch them on alignment, and I can catch them on a turn.
All of this without tracking mods.

Sniper fits rely HEAVILY on catching the target out of traversal.
Not too long back, just about everyone had a Tornado with 1400s sitting 200km off the gate blasting ships as soon as they came out of cloak...
If you came at them, they'd warp to another Snip position and blast you from there.

I would Like Tiberius Heth to name me one time where he has seen a missile boat used for sniping.
If he can, the I'll call him a flat out liar.


So in your hyperbole you forget to actually read. I said ALMOST straight and it's true. A frigate lolling about with some transversal is almost never going to get hit by 1400s at any range (again bar wrecking shots).


Frig is flying slightly towards my right... i'll go right as well to cut traversal.

Either way, you have a LOT better chance of getting a kill shot on that frig than a cruise missile does.
Cruise might hit it, but they'll need to hit it 20 times to kill it.
One shot from your 1400s, and it's gone.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#922 - 2015-07-24 04:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:


you could fly a MWD merlin almost straight at that Tornado and it would miss each and every time (apart from wrecking obviously). Versus a MWD Caracal you'd easily lose about 30% applied damage if he'd approach at ~10 degree angle, get it to 20 degrees and the applied damage becomes negligible. And it's not like those ships are the fastest & low sig representatives of their ship class.


http://imgur.com/lQiERIX

Tornado firing 1400mm at a MWD merlin in a straight line with Quake L and no other mods fitted.


Which part of "almost" don't you get. Give it some angle, show us the results.


http://imgur.com/ktJAvV1

Merlin with an actual fit instead of naked and 1 tracking comp on the nado.

is 10 degree almost enough?

http://imgur.com/WJ3cYtY

RNI and Ratle shoot the correct missiles (caldari navy because rage would be stupid...) and of course since I proabbly "cheated" by using a tracaking comp on teh nado, I put a guidance computer II on both missile ships with precision script.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#923 - 2015-07-24 05:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Joe Risalo wrote:
Frig is flying slightly towards my right... i'll go right as well to cut traversal.

Either way, you have a LOT better chance of getting a kill shot on that frig than a cruise missile does.
Cruise might hit it, but they'll need to hit it 20 times to kill it.
One shot from your 1400s, and it's gone.



Here's some graphs

0 angle, a bit of angle and some 30 degree angle. max dps with fit (is an incomplete fit but that doesn't change anything in this regard) is 691. I even use Quake to increase the chances of success.


With a little bit of angle only 110 dps remains which is about 16%, so on average about every 6 volleys that's going to hit. Cycle time is just over 16 seconds resulting in one single hit every 103 seconds (resulting in a kill). In the mean time the Merlin could have covered close to 3k km.

With 30 degrees of angle only 28 dps remains. [math happens]... once every 410 seconds, on average. That's getting dangerously close to the 1% wrecking chance.


And with small angles having THAT much of an impact, the chance of your amazing piloting skills making up for it all resulting in anywhere decent chance to hit is... super low.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#924 - 2015-07-24 05:17:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
RNI and Ratle shoot the correct missiles (caldari navy because rage would be stupid...) and of course since I proabbly "cheated" by using a tracaking comp on teh nado, I put a guidance computer II on both missile ships with precision script.



Nono, remove both:) Their statement was that turrets don't need tracking modules. I already agreed to the fact that the guidance mods aren't up to par and need rebalancing.


Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#925 - 2015-07-24 05:49:44 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
RNI and Ratle shoot the correct missiles (caldari navy because rage would be stupid...) and of course since I proabbly "cheated" by using a tracaking comp on teh nado, I put a guidance computer II on both missile ships with precision script.



Nono, remove both:) Their statement was that turrets don't need tracking modules. I already agreed to the fact that the guidance mods aren't up to par and need rebalancing.




What's the fudge factor on piloting skill? I'm pretty sure you could reduce the angular velocity to nothing if the merlin is far enough at a slight angle but there is no way in hell to really account for that in a graph.

no comp at all and 15 degree...

http://imgur.com/9g0dtbM

or 20...

http://imgur.com/YC3SMyD

Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#926 - 2015-07-24 06:09:28 UTC
Fairly similar to my numbers as yours is a fitted merlin while mine is an empty one as it's a decent average for all the other frigs.

Simply put: that merlin could fly around for a LONG time before it would finally get hit and this whole "turrets don't need tracking modules, see how OP they are. Please buff missiles so they have 100% application" is silly nonsense.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#927 - 2015-07-24 15:34:18 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Fairly similar to my numbers as yours is a fitted merlin while mine is an empty one as it's a decent average for all the other frigs.

Simply put: that merlin could fly around for a LONG time before it would finally get hit and this whole "turrets don't need tracking modules, see how OP they are. Please buff missiles so they have 100% application" is silly nonsense.


No one said or suggested any of that... If they did, that person is wrong.

We are simply stating that it is possible to have an effective turret boat without the use of tracking bonuses or Modules.

However, a missile as any range will always require at least one application mod to apply full damage.
The only time this doesn't apply is when the ship is a larger class than the missiles are intended for.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#928 - 2015-07-24 15:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Yes, they did. It's just that most of it got deleted. Here's some of the stuff that's still there.

elitatwo wrote:
Let's put it this way, you don't need to put any kind of application module on any turret boat and can still hit stuff. Missile ships HAVE to put at least two of those on to do any considerable amount of damage if any.

Poking things with one hitpoint cannot be considered as 'they always hit'.


elitatwo wrote:
Thank you, akfalt. Actually I meant my Confessor which kills ships just fine without application mods or heat sinks, so my lasers hit just fine and even in a ship like a Nightmare you just need to position yourself in a way that lowers your transversal and even the smallest ships go boom.


elitatwo wrote:
Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track.
In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage.



This hilarious post

And this one

This one is also great



So, how about people stop making overly exaggerated claims and obviously construed scenarios to act as basis for silly changes that make no sense whatsoever. And instead focus on realistic, balanced and workable ideas and solutions.


- diminish the target speed factor in the whole damage calculation, not to zero (I'm looking at you e2) but lower it to a point where it works fine. This is to counteract the loss of application due to the rigor/flare rig stacking penalty changes and to make AB fits less OP vs missiles.

- do so slightly more for HML

- up the stats on the application bonus of the guidance modules, leave range alone

- then decide to leave HML as is or drop range by a bit allowing for a slight flat dps buff. I'm talking small numbers here, 5% or so



Suddenly missiles work better where an MGC is a viable module for some situations (but obviously not all). Will that counter the Petes? No it won't because they're Petes for a reason: difficult to counter. You don't balance by bringing other stuff up to the same lvl as hilariously overpowered nonsense, you do it by nuking that nonsense's capabilities which in this case are medium rails, T3 nonsense and gang links.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#929 - 2015-07-24 17:42:11 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
some stuff and keeps attacking me..


Listen, kid, only my friends are allowed to call me e2 and you are not one of them. IF you need to talk to me my first name is 'your majesty' and no, I do not make jokes - puns sometimes or sarcasm but I do not make jokes.

With that out of the way, how in the Empress name can you even talk about high level weapon balance with 2 days of skill training?
Have you even ever flown a ship?

When I read from Kagura or baltec1 or James and many others I know that they have and that they can steer a discussion into a proper direction.
What Nevyn proposed sounds worth my while and I can very safely say that he knows what he is talking about, so will listen what each and all of them have to say.
We may or not agree on anything but that is fine. That doesn't mean that either of us is wrong or right.

That tornado example was meant for Lloyd Roses in response to his question. Rest assured, I know he is a very capable pilot and even though I don't use minmatar tech, he knowns that I know my turrets.

This totally ignored feedback thread is about missile application mods that are not worth the slot they want us to put them in and just like that Incarna debacle they didn't listen.

I have been around here for nine years. In any company I would be senior executive something by now. Wether or not CCP finds it amusing or listens what I say, people tend to give you the benefit of a doubt with that much experience and listen to me.
What I don't want is for everyone to like me or vanity, nor do I seek attention. But I can ask that my fellow capsuleer show me at least some kind of respect.

You do not.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#930 - 2015-07-25 00:53:08 UTC
I've removed an off-topic post.

Quote:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#931 - 2015-07-25 02:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#932 - 2015-07-25 04:30:40 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


May I ask what you're flying in?

I fly a Golem and have tried them with both Torps and cruise.
In both cases, 3 TPs or 2tps and a web always performed better.

I don't need the range for cruise, and if I try to use them to add range to Torps, then I lose application.
That said, my max lock range is 118km, and my TPs seem to still be more effective at that range, dispite being well out of optimal.

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#933 - 2015-07-25 05:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Joe Risalo wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


May I ask what you're flying in?

I fly a Golem and have tried them with both Torps and cruise.
In both cases, 3 TPs or 2tps and a web always performed better.

I don't need the range for cruise, and if I try to use them to add range to Torps, then I lose application.
That said, my max lock range is 118km, and my TPs seem to still be more effective at that range, dispite being well out of optimal.




purifier,
max lock range of 97 navy torps to 96.5 with range script 87 with no script and 81km off or with precision script. really wanted to get to 100-110km range so I would always be in range when I land and the old set up did this with javs (boo lower dps) or 87km with navy torps. On the new one javs are pointless so most of the range is lost cause of lock range and the loss of dps from javs is more than the couple of seconds to get in range of target.


so i don't have many lows or mids to put into application. they replaced a sensor booster and a co-pro and a missile range rig for 1 low slot, 1 mid slot and a targeting range rig, now needs implants but I don't mind giving up the slot in my head to make it fit.

also before commenting this is for missions in FW which are all single kill ones or 6 targets (don't does these)
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#934 - 2015-07-25 06:49:06 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


May I ask what you're flying in?

I fly a Golem and have tried them with both Torps and cruise.
In both cases, 3 TPs or 2tps and a web always performed better.

I don't need the range for cruise, and if I try to use them to add range to Torps, then I lose application.
That said, my max lock range is 118km, and my TPs seem to still be more effective at that range, dispite being well out of optimal.



Again, the Golem gets bonused TP so you're never EVER going to see a reason to fit them there, unless you want the range. Also TP is binary, they either will work or they don't and at 100km they have a bout a 50% chance to apply (assuming maxed TP skills).
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#935 - 2015-07-25 06:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


Previously it made the most sense to fit 2 rigors (being a T2 ship), if you now use a MGC it makes more sense to fit 1 rigor and 1 flare and even with a precision script MGC you will perform LESS than before the changes when you'd just use rigs. That's the big gripe, the actual problem: due to the stacking changes you're now forced to waste a mid slot while still doing worse than before.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#936 - 2015-07-25 07:16:52 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


May I ask what you're flying in?

I fly a Golem and have tried them with both Torps and cruise.
In both cases, 3 TPs or 2tps and a web always performed better.

I don't need the range for cruise, and if I try to use them to add range to Torps, then I lose application.
That said, my max lock range is 118km, and my TPs seem to still be more effective at that range, dispite being well out of optimal.



Again, the Golem gets bonused TP so you're never EVER going to see a reason to fit them there, unless you want the range. Also TP is binary, they either will work or they don't and at 100km they have a bout a 50% chance to apply (assuming maxed TP skills).


Oh, well aware. I was just pointing out that well outside of optimal, they still perform significantly better.
That said, I had fitted up a Manticore the same way, and had the same general outcome.
Regardless of range, the TPs outperformed the MGC 2 with precision script.

While I'm at it, I'd also like to point out a couple things.
1) most systems that would be best served by the range bonus are also the ones that are more reliant on the application bonus. IE, short range missile and HMLs.
Long range missiles are less reliant on application and range.
So it's a catch 22 for shorts, and redundant for longs.

2) Notice how no one speaks of the MGE... It's useless in all cases.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#937 - 2015-07-25 07:29:44 UTC
I agree that, yes, the divide between TP's and these modules are far less pronounce with cases where you can neither afford to bring a plethora of TP's nor when there are bonused from the hull like the Golem.

Having said that, I agree with Joe on the sentiment that TP's still have a pretty sizable edge over MGC's 1 to 1, bonuses or not. And, we actually have mentioned the MGE once or twice...even if only to state how they do absolutely bubkiss compared to alternative lows.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#938 - 2015-07-25 07:38:50 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
I agree that, yes, the divide between TP's and these modules are far less pronounce with cases where you can neither afford to bring a plethora of TP's nor when there are bonused from the hull like the Golem.

Having said that, I agree with Joe on the sentiment that TP's still have a pretty sizable edge over MGC's 1 to 1, bonuses or not. And, we actually have mentioned the MGE once or twice...even if only to state how they do absolutely bubkiss compared to alternative lows.


True but MGC have two things in their favour:

1) they don't need to be activated per target. Which ever way you look at it manually painting each and every target is annoying as hell, in pve anyway.
2) they work regardless of range, not really useful when using the short range missiles but when using heavies at their max or better yet Cruise then TP are going to struggle at longer ranges


Doesn't make up for the fact that well fitted ships now perform worse than before the changes but they are useful no matter what. Would MGC/missiles get balanced to where they should be those two will be massive boons.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#939 - 2015-07-25 08:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Also true, they are not without their selling points. On top of those abilities, the MGC's can be scripted to focus on either or, too. Personally, though, I don't feel they are quite enough to make up for their shortcomings. Again, personally, mind you. I'm sure others can and will find ways to make them work well enough for them. I do think the fact that missiles in general have not been given an intimate balancing pass only helps to corrode those advantages in my mind and maybe others as well, so perhaps they will in a much better place afterwards. Tough to say until after missiles are tended to more properly.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#940 - 2015-07-25 08:41:52 UTC
Most missiles are balanced around having bleed on a single-webbed AB target of the same size. At least that's what I see. If you can apply 2 webs to a target then things get exciting (also you no longer have a need for mgc unless the enemy are overloaded on links or oversized AB).

A fairly capable fleet of hml could conceivably consist of a pair of huginns with 1tp 1web and any damage bonused ship with a single mgc in the mid per ship. If you wanted to get really pedantic there are other things you could add but for a basic missile fleet this is functional.