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A new approach to balance
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-07-25 04:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
10 years + of attempting to balance ships in EvE hasn't worked. Why? Because the methodology is flawed. From battleships to Supers to T3s to Ishtars whenever a ship or module or mechanic is nerfed the player finds a new best ship and the cycle continues.

Currently the best of the best in our world is the F22 or Sukhoi PAK FA so why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's?

I think the game would benefit by linking some form of bottleneck on the production of ships to limit the amount of a specific ship being produced. A example but not necessarily a workable suggestion would be purchasing an item from the manufacturer (Ishukone for example) for each run of a BP with a scaling cost based on demand.

You could have OP ships in game but given such ships would be in high demand the cost would scale to become prohibitive, rather than the devs nerfing ships or mods the game would nerf base on demand as happens in the real world.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2 - 2015-07-25 05:05:08 UTC
Not only is this a bad idea for a game, it also is not how the real world works.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-07-25 05:10:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-07-25 05:53:23 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.


How are babies made?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-07-25 05:59:10 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Not only is this a bad idea for a game, it also is not how the real world works.

How would it be bad for the game.

Also are you really saying supply and licenced production limiting supply and demand in the real world are not related to affordability and accessibility? Really?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-07-25 06:07:00 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
10 years + of attempting to balance ships in EvE hasn't worked. Why? Because the methodology is flawed. From battleships to Supers to T3s to Ishtars whenever a ship or module or mechanic is nerfed

Seriously when has CCP ever actually nerfed a ship?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-07-25 06:07:28 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.

So you're confirming a direct parallel between production and cost. Additionally certain components of advanced tech in the real world are closely guarded secrets. Any country in the world likely had the materials to produce F22's however even were they to have the blueprints they probably couldn't produce them without assistance from Lockheed and its partners. In comparison all you need in EvE are some very basic base minerals and a BPC.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-07-25 06:08:53 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
10 years + of attempting to balance ships in EvE hasn't worked. Why? Because the methodology is flawed. From battleships to Supers to T3s to Ishtars whenever a ship or module or mechanic is nerfed

Seriously when has CCP ever actually nerfed a ship?

😯

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-07-25 06:49:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.

So you're confirming a direct parallel between production and cost. Additionally certain components of advanced tech in the real world are closely guarded secrets. Any country in the world likely had the materials to produce F22's however even were they to have the blueprints they probably couldn't produce them without assistance from Lockheed and its partners. In comparison all you need in EvE are some very basic base minerals and a BPC.

No, I'm wondering why you think that we should leave the best ships in the hands of people with the biggest wallets.

Notice how heavy the imbalance of power is in the world, and (thankfully) more stagnant than it has been in a long time. Your method might limit the ships accessibility, but that does not leave it balanced.

Your method does not consider the likely spread of those now rarer ships in throughout the game. It does not delve into the problem of what could happen, and assumes it won't happen. In a similar but different method, supers were not supposed to proliferate and the subsequently congregate, as much as they have.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-07-25 06:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.


How are babies made?

Well, it's kind of hard to explain....

I'm going to need a volunteer for demonstration purposes.

It'll be quick, I promise.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#11 - 2015-07-25 07:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's
because most countries don't have a defense budget that eclipses the entire gdp of most nations.

Next question.


How are babies made?
Ignore the above poster. They are made in heaven and delivered by Storks. I have this on good authority, my mum told me years ago and it was confirmed when I watched a Tom and Jerry cartoon. Big smile

As to the OP.
It's not failed. Balance in a game as complicated as this, is a forever changing situation. I think overall, CCP do a quite a good job in regards to balance.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2015-07-25 07:12:08 UTC
Mag's wrote:
It's not failed. Balance in a game as complicated as this, is a forever changing situation. I think overall, CCP do a quite a good job in regards to balance.

Then again, a Titan blapping frigs and destroyers with Citadel Cruises, 2 TPs and 2 Missile Guidance Computers?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2015-07-25 07:23:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mag's wrote:
It's not failed. Balance in a game as complicated as this, is a forever changing situation. I think overall, CCP do a quite a good job in regards to balance.

Then again, a Titan blapping frigs and destroyers with Citadel Cruises, 2 TPs and 2 Missile Guidance Computers?
There are always exceptions to the rule, but that's what I mean by complicated.

But saying that, would these frigs and destroyers be motionless at the time? Or does this frig killing setup work on moving AB/MWD frigs and dessies?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2015-07-25 07:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
From what I can tell, they were mostly moving. Can't say what kind of propmod they were using, though.

However, at the moment I believe that it's not the complexity of the game that produces such strange effects but rather CCP's current focus on giving out "fun" tools for a short period of time and then trying to nerf ships/mods back into more sensible levels.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#15 - 2015-07-25 07:37:11 UTC
Watched it and tbh, I don't have any problems with what I saw. It was a well laid trap with a specific fit for that job.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2015-07-25 07:54:07 UTC
That might very well be true, but Titans and Supercaps are not supposed to be able to deal with this kind of fleet against them unless they have a proper support fleet. Or so was the reasoning behind the removal of standard drones from Dreads, Supercarriers and Titans. And now, Titans can alpha frigates and destroyers with missiles. You know what I mean?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#17 - 2015-07-25 07:57:51 UTC
-1 eve needs to untie itself from NPCs not make the ties stronger

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Mag's
Azn Empire
#18 - 2015-07-25 07:59:47 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That might very well be true, but Titans and Supercaps are not supposed to be able to deal with this kind of fleet against them unless they have a proper support fleet. Or so was the reasoning behind the removal of standard drones from Dreads, Supercarriers and Titans. And now, Titans can alpha frigates and destroyers with missiles. You know what I mean?
Yea I see what you mean but he did have support, hence the bubble. It was a trap. Sure he was blapping frigs, but using a specific fit and it looked to be taking all 7 missiles to do it.

But does this go both ways? Should the fig gang also have support? It could have gone just as badly for the carrier.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Valkin Mordirc
#19 - 2015-07-25 10:34:13 UTC
Completely off topic, but the F-22 is a complete failcade of a plane.


Not really stealth as it's completely visible to Radar.

It is partially to blame for causing the economy to crash.

It can't dogfight.


And if you kill one, you completely take out the small value of a decent town.
#DeleteTheWeak
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#20 - 2015-07-25 10:34:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
10 years + of attempting to balance ships in EvE hasn't worked. Why? Because the methodology is flawed. From battleships to Supers to T3s to Ishtars whenever a ship or module or mechanic is nerfed the player finds a new best ship and the cycle continues.

Currently the best of the best in our world is the F22 or Sukhoi PAK FA so why don't all airforces use these platforms? Why are some airforces using F16's or F18's?

I think the game would benefit by linking some form of bottleneck on the production of ships to limit the amount of a specific ship being produced. A example but not necessarily a workable suggestion would be purchasing an item from the manufacturer (Ishukone for example) for each run of a BP with a scaling cost based on demand.

You could have OP ships in game but given such ships would be in high demand the cost would scale to become prohibitive, rather than the devs nerfing ships or mods the game would nerf base on demand as happens in the real world.



Remember when CCP introduced titans?
They purposely made them so big, and so expensive (and phallic looking) that they thought "oh, there's never going to be more than a few in the game"

Yeah....
Remind me again how that worked out?
That's right, it didn't.

Cost is NOT and never will be, a valid way to balance things.
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