Crime & Punishment

Yes it does, you literally stated as much.

You're certainly not ruining people's games by letting them live on their first trip out of a station.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Yeah, sounds like a fair idea. I have no problems with people having the choice to dive straight into PvP. It would be very tough to get them up to speed on all of the mechanics in order to survive, but not impossible. I'd add that when you create your first character on an account that character should get a pack of items to get them started related to their chosen style. Relatively decent amounts of it like 50-100m. They'd have to have a look at the buddy system to make sure people can't farm free alt accounts to do it, but wouldn't be too tough.

It is only as hard as the person makes it.

All the tools are there to jump right into PvP from the start.

it is just the mind set of the dude behind the key board.

There was a pretty extensive thread on the subject here on the forums that I can't be bothered to find because I am phone posting, I'll dig it up later, I also had a senior GM totally flip out via the petition system when I asked exactly why it isn't okay and how it is a violation of any rule to bait a 5 year old player in a faction battelship, inside his mission pocket into shooting you and he refused to give an answer, stated that baiting anyone anywhere near a rookie system was prohibited and closed the petition.

And you said he should annoy people in to declaring war on him in or around rookie systems, unless you mean he should say mean things to them 90% of the things you can do in highsec (as few as those things are) result in you being suspect flagged. In fact just fighting a war often results in you being suspect flagged because "neutral" has more meanings than the one presumed by the uninformed.

I personally have annoyed people into declaring war on me when I was a newbie in a t1 frigate with t1 guns on it (a 250 man alliance called Axiom versus our 6 man corp) in a system now considered a rookie system and then proceeded to kill those people in that system. The actions I did to make that happen would presently have gotten me banned.

I can see why it's easy to imagine my comments as being melodramatic or exaggerated, but they're not, highsec PVP has been neutered pretty severely, particularly in the way new players are exposed to it. There's very little incidental, low intensity PVP from things like ninja salvaging and can flipping anymore and there are no low-skill war corps. The first exposure a new player gets to pvp in highsec is a wardec from a 50-200 man dedicated pvp alliance.

That wasn't me, I didn't do that, the people who pushed for the restrictions on highsec pvp that eliminated the lower intensity PVP activities and casual and low SP wardec groups did.

I'ts nto a strawman, you actually said it. You stated quite clearly "Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets.". That implies that you believe we need noobs to be cannon fodder. Being cannon fodder means being shot, ergo you want to shoot noobs.

Lol, what was that about a strawman? I've been here far too long for a griefer to have ever affected me.

What should a noob experience? Enough of the mechanics to know how to at least manoeuvre their ship, fit and use modules and understand the basic statistics of ships before they get blown out of the sky by some neckbeard with an inferiority complex.

The system looks better than it did, but not as good as it could be. BEar in mind mate, when I joined there was no NPE. You just appeared in space and went around doing stuff until you figured it out. In any case you weren't instantly confronted by some asshat going blinky yellow and trying to triggers duels with you so they could oneshot you. Does the NPE need improving? es, most definitely. Do noobs need to be blown to pieces and trolled in local for being terrible before they have any idea what they are doing? Certainly not.

Anyway, I thought you'd ragequit already.

Well I've seen them specifically stating that it applies to newbies in the system, not just the system, though like I say I can believe that suspect flags would b a problem.

You can annoy them elsewhere and then go home and let them follow. More than 1 jump out and you'd be fine to go suspect anyway.

But it hasn't really, has it? Ninja salvaging and can flipping may be gone, but duel request and suspect baiting now exist. Ganking is about as common, albeit more organised now with actual fights occurring due to AGs trying to stop them, and wardecs are significantly more rife. You're right in one respect, there are very few low-skill wardec corps, but that's because all the wardec corps have become about mass farming easy targets with the highest possible isk efficiency. That's why I believe the next major change to highsec aggression will be completely restructuring wardec mechanics, as it's a serious activity blocker in highsec.

Getting blasted is the best part of the noob experience.

Mining, grinding, and reading tutorials is work.

Without at least the threat or hope of pvp, they won't stay.

We're turning eve into a no-skill sim isk-hoarding game that makes no sense.

CCP has posted research suggesting that players who experience non-consensual pvp in their two week period are more likely to subscribe and play longer.

My argument is that I'm not the one hurting noobs, all the over-maternal white knights who are protecting them are.

Let them play...

Ccp runs ccp.
And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates.

What you hear has no basis buddy.

FACTS AND DATA from ccp outweigh what you "hear" farmer

I think it's a strech to say they enjoy it, people don't enjoy losing (unless they are playing dwarf fortress). But it's even more ridiculous to claim that grown men find the experience of a fictional spaceship exploding so utterly harrowing that they immediately start crying and quit the game.

The specific circumstances under which a spaceship explodes matters. Your spaceship getting instantly blapped as you undock from jita is considerably more aggravating than your spaceship exploding because you shot someone who stole your ore and he turned out to be more than you can handle (not that canflipping exists anymore, it doesn't) or exploding because you got tackle on something for your fleet, but weren't able to tank it.

Feelings of confusion and powerlessness are the undesirable parts of newbie ship loss and that's exactly what the continuous papercut nerfs to highsec PVP have cultivated, there's no gradation to it. New players go instantly from not having to even think about another player potentially shooting them, to being tackled by a T3 or blapped by a tornado with nothing in between.

Measures that attempt to make highsec "safer" for new players just widen that gulf, PVP isn't something people need to be protected from until they meet some nebulous standard of being "Ready" for it, it's the major selling point of the game and should be a normal, routine thing for them to be exposed to from the very start of their time playing the game.

The better metric to go by on that one would be that virtually no subscriptions get cancelled because of "ship loss". There's a sub expiry/cancellation survey.