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Crime & Punishment

 
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Awox Nerf Fails to Boost EVE Numbers

Author
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#41 - 2015-07-21 13:06:40 UTC
I don't really see much crying here so much as the pointing out of the failure of a measure that was intended to do a thing in doing that thing.
It didn't work, and now a thing that was very much EVE and EVE alone has been made to suffer in vain.
AWOX'es still will happen, but the age of the safari has been nearly made extinct.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#42 - 2015-07-21 13:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
The answer to a thing not working because the problem it was meant to fix isn't even real is to do more of the same thing, preferably even harder to fix the same non-existent problem.

If we just keep doing it eventually it will work.We will get those Elder Scrolls Online players eventually, we just have to turn off more features.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#43 - 2015-07-21 13:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I don't really see much crying here so much as the pointing out of the failure of a measure that was intended to do a thing in doing that thing.
It didn't work, and now a thing that was very much EVE and EVE alone has been made to suffer in vain.
AWOX'es still will happen, but the age of the safari has been nearly made extinct.
But then even that blog post states it, the number of people it's affected is minimal. Whether it's had much of an effect or not (hard to tell considering it being summer and there being a sov overhaul, both of which affects subs significantly) is mostly irrelevant. It was a pretty weird thing to have in place anyway. It was good back before there were ways to initiate legal combat, so people in corps could practice fights, but since dueling became a thing, it's solely been there for mind-numbingly easy awoxing. I like that people have to put a little bit of effort in now. I was always one for "STEAL EVERYTHING!" rather than "shoot orca - run away giggling" anyway.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2015-07-21 13:48:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Actually, the stats show that at least 3 times as many players join for "levelling their raven", they just leave unfulfilled.


No, that's just what the deeply flawed NPE pushes them into doing.

If people really did join this game to shoot at red crosses, there wouldn't be such massive spikes in newbies after a newsworthy capital fleet battle, and such.

People join for conflict. The game fails to give it to them, so they eventually quit.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#45 - 2015-07-21 13:50:39 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Guys let's totally butcher the game and reduce it's appeal to the niche audience that has kept the game alive up until this point in an attempt to appeal to the more conventional MMO audience!

This is a totally sweet idea because even though traditional MMO players normally migrate between games as those MMOs go f2p then die even though they have huge budgets and massive hype they will somehow stick with EVE in the long term.

Oh wait, that's a ******** idea.


You forgot the part about the graveyard of dead MMOs who also tried to cheapen and cazualize their core gameplay.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#46 - 2015-07-21 14:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Actually, the stats show that at least 3 times as many players join for "levelling their raven", they just leave unfulfilled.
No, that's just what the deeply flawed NPE pushes them into doing.
The NPE shows you the basics of the non player part of the game, it hardly pushes you into a career in PvE. I think it's pretty easy to see why MMOs players would come to a game with the aim of playing it like a "normal" MMO. And it fails to deliver that because they have neglected the depth of PvE for so long.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If people really did join this game to shoot at red crosses, there wouldn't be such massive spikes in newbies after a newsworthy capital fleet battle, and such.
Of course there would. It really doesn't matter what the bulk of people come to the game for, if it makes international news and hits non-gaming news sites, you're going to see people come to check it out. I'm pretty sure the same happened with the collapse of one of the big EVE banks, which had nothing to do with shooting people.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
People join for conflict. The game fails to give it to them, so they eventually quit.
I disagree. People come here for a multitude of reasons. Some come for conflict, some to level their raven, some to explore some space, some for a mix, and so on. I can't imagine many people come here to be blown up within their first week and trolled by a bunch of guys bored of 4chan. I'm a big supporter of people being able to choose more when they start, such as being dumped in null or lowsec, and I've even suggested before the idea of giving people better starting skills and a handful of PvP fitted ships to begin with, but there still needs to be viable choices of how to play, including levelling your raven in relative safety. Nuking highsec so that people have to run into scrubs like you who want to feel big by winning against complete rookies is not what I'd consider a good direction.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-07-21 14:28:55 UTC
i dont think people know what they want when they come to eve, they find out what they want when they start playing, which the npe will influence that descision, unless you come to pvp then they are given no real help into getting that, basically thrown to the curb and told to read and get over it.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#48 - 2015-07-21 14:44:06 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
i dont think people know what they want when they come to eve, they find out what they want when they start playing, which the npe will influence that descision, unless you come to pvp then they are given no real help into getting that, basically thrown to the curb and told to read and get over it.
You say that, but multiple parts of the NPE are around PvP mechanics. They can't put actual PvP into the NPE because there's no people sitting around ready to be part of a tutorial. It doesn't tell you how to use LP, harvest gas or research blueprints either. Whatever you get into when you arrive is going to require some level of reading up. Do you really think PvP would be much more appealing if you arrived, had no protection, got blown up by people far more knowledgeable about the game then you then got laughed at and insulted in local for being terrible? Most people's reaction to that exact thing tells me that people wouldn't find it very entertaining. And that's what EVE is supposed to be, it's entertainment, not a career choice.

The thing is, many of us vets have the same story. We came to EVE, started doing carebearing and later found our way into the rest of the game. Yet a new player arrives and tries to do carebearing and apparently that's not allowed, they need to be instantly and repeatedly killed, that's the only way they'll ever be able to play EVE.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-07-21 14:44:22 UTC
The elitist idea that we shouldn't club defenseless new players is killing this game.

If you haven't looked, check out the charts on the posted pages. The game is dying.

The crackdown on EULA violations started about a year before the new crimewatch rules hit. It lines up with the charts that show the decline of the game. My friends mostly quit before the crimewatch even went into effect...

In 2011 you could get a fight in Akiainavas (noob system) anytime you wanted. If you were a new player there, you could watch fights, take fights, or participate as you saw fit.

There were frequently multiple baiters outside station with whom you could play. Some were noobs, some were barely able to beat noobs, and some were very skilled. The local chat was full of arguments, smack talk, etc...

Ultimately, it was mean, it was funny, it was stupid... But it was content.

Whether you logged off happy or mad, you were entertained.

Baiting is now dead. Akiainavas is now silent. Local chat is empty and there is nothing but ships going about their mission activities in perfect solitude. New players don't log in and encounter fights, wrecked ships, chaos, and smack talk.

They encounter only repetitive low-quality NPC content.

We aren't retaining new players because we're preventing them from experiencing the brutality that made Eve great.

The elitist attitude that only inferior players and bad people kill noobs is destroying the noob experience. That's why retention is going down.

Our noobs are neither happy nor angry when they log out. Evidence suggests they're not even interested.

If they would just roll pvp and baiting mechanics back to 2011 and let us fight in noob systems this whole thing could turn around.


I think CCP is going to go down in a big feel-good nerf cycle.

I'm about to add my name to the un-subs once again. The current war dec mechanics are a shadow of what they once were. I miss baiting and I'm bored. I think our noobs are too.


Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#50 - 2015-07-21 14:54:40 UTC
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
If you haven't looked, check out the charts on the posted pages. The game is dying.


Mobadder Thworst wrote:
In 2011 you could get a fight in Akiainavas (noob system) anytime you wanted. If you were a new player there, you could watch fights, take fights, or participate as you saw fit.
You still can fight in that system, you just can't kill noobs. If you see me in that system for example you can freely go nuts firing at me and no amount of petitions is going to get you in trouble. Feel free to fight vets there any time. I'd check, but I'm pretty sure you'd get away with fighting noobs too if you sorted them out some isk for their stuff and actively taught them while fighting (perhaps even just reducing to hull and explaining how they could have avoided that). The rules are there to stop people showing up, ganking people on their first flight and laughing in their faces.

Mobadder Thworst wrote:
I'm about to add my name to the un-subs once again. The current war dec mechanics are a shadow of what they once were. I miss baiting and I'm bored. I think our noobs are too.
Can I have your stuff? I'll distribute it to noobs.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-07-21 14:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mobadder Thworst
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
If you haven't looked, check out the charts on the posted pages. The game is dying.


Mobadder Thworst wrote:
In 2011 you could get a fight in Akiainavas (noob system) anytime you wanted. If you were a new player there, you could watch fights, take fights, or participate as you saw fit.
You still can fight in that system, you just can't kill noobs. If you see me in that system for example you can freely go nuts firing at me and no amount of petitions is going to get you in trouble. Feel free to fight vets there any time. I'd check, but I'm pretty sure you'd get away with fighting noobs too if you sorted them out some isk for their stuff and actively taught them while fighting (perhaps even just reducing to hull and explaining how they could have avoided that). The rules are there to stop people showing up, ganking people on their first flight and laughing in their faces.

Mobadder Thworst wrote:
I'm about to add my name to the un-subs once again. The current war dec mechanics are a shadow of what they once were. I miss baiting and I'm bored. I think our noobs are too.
Can I have your stuff? I'll distribute it to noobs.


No. My stuff goes with my account.

I still hold onto the hope that CCP will wake up before the game dies.


As for your statement about fighting vets... It's not accurate. Any fighting in a noob system without a war dec is petition able.

The last time I got petitioned there I was baiting against a guy in a scorpion. He undocked in a kestrel and I killed it in what I expected to be a fight. When I saw it was unfit, I figured it was a petition gank.

Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets. Baiting is dead... And a substantial quantity of entertainment and content went with it.

Back when the subscriber count was climbing, the game was really hard. They gave you a kestrel and told you to kill Gallente. There were baiters everywhere trying to steal your stuff and kill you.

When I was new I hated those guys. I felt like they were just jerks. However, over time I came to understand that the game needs bad guys. They make you mad, but they're necessary. Without them, there is no compelling storyline...

Eve has become easy... And easy games aren't compelling or fun.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#52 - 2015-07-21 15:21:27 UTC
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
As for your statement about fighting vets... It's not accurate. Any fighting in a noob system without a war dec is petition able.

The last time I got petitioned there I was baiting against a guy in a scorpion. He undocked in a kestrel and I killed it in what I expected to be a fight. When I saw it was unfit, I figured it was a petition gank.
If the character is an old character, they can petition all they want, no action would be taken. If you blew me up in a rookie ship on the undock they would probably give me a warning for wasting their time if I petitioned it.

Mobadder Thworst wrote:
Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets. Baiting is dead... And a substantial quantity of entertainment and content went with it.

Back when the subscriber count was climbing, the game was really hard. They gave you a kestrel and told you to kill Gallente.

Eve has become easy... And easy games aren't compelling.
So here's the crux of it. Your problem isn't that newbies don't get to see fights, it's that you can't sit there ganking noobs with ease. If you want a fight on an undock, head to Jita or Amarr and go suspect, you'll get one. But that's not what you want is it? You want a day old player with no clue what he's doing so you can guarantee a win.

Simply put, the game is better without you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-07-21 15:25:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
As for your statement about fighting vets... It's not accurate. Any fighting in a noob system without a war dec is petition able.

The last time I got petitioned there I was baiting against a guy in a scorpion. He undocked in a kestrel and I killed it in what I expected to be a fight. When I saw it was unfit, I figured it was a petition gank.
If the character is an old character, they can petition all they want, no action would be taken. If you blew me up in a rookie ship on the undock they would probably give me a warning for wasting their time if I petitioned it.

Mobadder Thworst wrote:
Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets. Baiting is dead... And a substantial quantity of entertainment and content went with it.

Back when the subscriber count was climbing, the game was really hard. They gave you a kestrel and told you to kill Gallente.

Eve has become easy... And easy games aren't compelling.
So here's the crux of it. Your problem isn't that newbies don't get to see fights, it's that you can't sit there ganking noobs with ease. If you want a fight on an undock, head to Jita or Amarr and go suspect, you'll get one. But that's not what you want is it? You want a day old player with no clue what he's doing so you can guarantee a win.

Simply put, the game is better without you.


You can't see the big picture through your certainty. No, I'm not excited about killing noobs.

Your rhetoric( and its equivalent) will kill this game.

I hope someone at CCP learns to see through it.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#54 - 2015-07-21 15:48:41 UTC
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
You can't see the big picture through your certainty. No, I'm not excited about killing noobs.

Your rhetoric( and its equivalent) will kill this game.

I hope someone at CCP learns to see through it.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets. Baiting is dead...
That's you. Right there. Claiming that noobs need to be "cannon fodder". If you really believed that noobs seeing fights was helpful and wanted to push that you could, by arranging for players who know what they are doing to fight outside rookie stations without engaging noobs, but that's obviously not what you want.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#55 - 2015-07-21 16:11:15 UTC
You realize that people don't play the game to retain newbies, right? It is not the responsibility of players to stage fleet fights at our own expense just to entertain new players.

Combat in highsec should be an organic thing that happens as a result of normal gameplay, not something staged pretend event for the entrainment of newbies.

When newbies see people fighting in highsec it's entirely common for them to ask what the heck is going on and why all those people are shooting each other. "It's actually just a pretend battle we're putting on as a show" is not a good answer.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#56 - 2015-07-21 16:20:58 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
You realize that people don't play the game to retain newbies, right? It is not the responsibility of players to stage fleet fights at our own expense just to entertain new players.
I'm well aware, but he's claiming that newbies don't stay because he's not fighting outside rookie stations anymore, so the most obvious fix is for him to do that again.

Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Combat in highsec should be an organic thing that happens as a result of normal gameplay, not something staged pretend event for the entrainment of newbies.
Indeed it should. Hunting down newbies specifically because they are easy targets isn't really organic though, is it?

Vimsy Vortis wrote:
When newbies see people fighting in highsec it's entirely common for them to ask what the heck is going on and why all those people are shooting each other. "It's actually just a pretend battle we're putting on as a show" is not a good answer.
Don't say that then, come up with a good reason. Alternatively he could live in and around that space and annoy people into wardeccing him and hunting him down. Naturally noobs should encounter him fighting. Whatever the answer is, it's not "lift the restrictions on rookie systems so I can gank day old noobs for kicks".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#57 - 2015-07-21 16:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
I'm never going to fabricate a lie to tell to newbies to trick them 8nto thinking the game is more interesting than it is. Also you can't annoy people in or around new player systems, they ban you for that.

You're also making a huge error in assuming that new players are the targets of any kind of highsec aggression. Generally speaking they aren't. In the case of awoxing for example new players were never the target of that, they frankly don't have assets that are worth targeting, the targets have always been high value assets like bling fit pve ships, orcaS, freighters and other ships worth ransoming or blowing up for loot. The same is true for wars, new players are not the people who flag as potential targets, new players fly stupid little crap that's both difficult to catch and basically worthless, you spend more money on locates trying to figure out where they are than you get in kills. The people who stand out are.the ones who've been in highsec a long time and have a history of losing things without the slightest attempt at self defense.

Targeting new players does not result in war reports with an entire mining fleet complete with orca on them, or dead marauders, or undefended towers and POCOs.

It's not newbies who are willfully defenseless, in fact newbies are quite often excited by the prospect of fighting someone (I know I was, in fact being wardecced for no less than 16 consecutive weeks is why I still play the game). The people who flip that friendly fire switch to illegal are people who have things in highsec they are afraid to lose and who don't care or trust enough to try and keep them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#58 - 2015-07-21 17:04:43 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I'm never going to fabricate a lie to tell to newbies to trick them 8nto thinking the game is more interesting than it is. Also you can't annoy people in or around new player systems, they ban you for that.
They only ban you for doing it to newbies. Nothing stops you moving to a newbie system then annoying POH for example.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#59 - 2015-07-21 17:52:10 UTC
No, they don't. They will literally warn/ban you for being suspect flagged in a rookie system if anyone petitions you. regardless of whether or not you even shoot at anyone.

The whole issue came up ages ago when Arnon was declared a rookie system because it's near by to fairly active lowsec, is a minor market hub, has many large ore belts and has non-rookie agents in system. Initially CCP stated that you could do pretty much whatever so long as you didn't target "rookies" and then people started getting bans and warnings for blowing up hulks and tengus. People then asked what the hell a rookie was, the GMs then basically lost their ****, told everyone not to try and game the rules and "there are other ways to kill people so don't be suspect flagged!!" Since then they've essentially been enforcing zero tolerance and also extending it to duels and suicide ganking.

You're welcome to go try it, I'll pass though.
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-07-21 17:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mobadder Thworst
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
No, they don't. They will literally warn/ban you for being suspect flagged in a rookie system if anyone petitions you. regardless of whether or not you even shoot at anyone.

The whole issue came up ages ago when Arnon was declared a rookie system because it's near by to fairly active lowsec, is a minor market hub, has many large ore belts and has non-rookie agents in system. Initially CCP stated that you could do pretty much whatever so long as you didn't target "rookies" and then people started getting bans and warnings for blowing up hulks and tengus. People then asked what the hell a rookie was, the GMs then basically lost their ****, told everyone not to try and game the rules and "there are other ways to kill people so don't be suspect flagged!!" Since then they've essentially been enforcing zero tolerance and also extending it to duels and suicide ganking.

You're welcome to go try it, I'll pass though.


That pretty much describes my experience.

My post have nothing to do with a desire to shoot noobs. I just think we're ruining the game for them and us.

Retention numbers agree... They started leaving when my friends started leaving...