Player Features and Ideas Discussion

In an eve where structure bashing is the rule, sure. Enter entosis link and soon an eve where massive hp structures aren't the rule. It's a good thing those carriers follow the same balance rules right? Caps able to roflcopter through sub caps unsupported right? But again, I don't think dreads or titans should have point defense weapons right now. But I'm not closed to them evolving as eve evolves either.

Oh boy now we are bringing out the rulers. I have so and so so I must be right. Why? Barring a hapless a-wing managing to crash into its bridge when it's shields are down, what does a star destroyer care about little ships buzzing around? It's not even about realism, it's about logic. I say that as an owner of an eve account. Whoop tee do. So what? Who cares how many this that or the other pixel ships you own. Star trek, Bob help us, even gave their ships point defense because it is logical.

You don't want caps to be stand alone? Then rebalance capital weapons so they haven't a chance in heck of traversing with anything moving, so they actually have to rotate around from their last firing position not this instant snap to that we currently have, and carriers so they are not stupidly huge drone bays with unbreakable rr. Further, rebalance battleships and caps so bs are not 1/6 or w/e the hp of carriers that are nearly the same size. That hp disparity is absolutely laughable. You're really gonna tell me an archon, full of hundreds of drones, has 3 times as much armor as a brick tanked abaddon and that makes sense by any other bar than 'oh but balance.'

I 100% agree the current 'balance' isn't built for more logical and intuitive/engaging cap mechanics. But I 100% disagree that we should just say 'balanced' and throw our hands up as nothing to be done about it. Cap warfare in general is very limited in variety and depth. Basically are we using one of 4 fleet doctrines and that is about it. WHY are we settling at that and not pushing for more intelligent and interesting /challenging gameplay?

Since you asked....I am in the caps and supers must burn crowd. So yes....lets give carries the mommie treatment and limit drone use.

And I can fly caps...I just want them reigned in a little. I like smaller ships tbh and prefer skill and use with them was the benchmark of a player. Not can they press f1 in a high ehp ship in seconds flat to go back to watching youtube in background till ammo runs out or spit some drones out as they die off.


Also we have not seen entosis/fozzie sov in full bore runs yet. Lets not say the days of bash or cap fights over just yet...

I think carriers are probably the closest to what some at CCP might consider the ideal for capitals. Of course given the current state of capitals and super capitals that is not saying much at all.

If anything I think limiting the remote rep capability will be where CCP looks next, not so much the drone bay. Maybe make it so that remote repping each other is not quite such a thing. v0v

@Teckos: As long as Fozzie says it's okay to wreck caps by making them do something he can't even do with command ships, making them give grid wide bonuses but no damage, I guess it's okay to just be okay with boring and 'balanced from a certain point of view' game play. Note I'm not the one saying they are balanced and 'fine.' I'm not the one suggesting because it looks cool. Every post I've made on the issue has made concessions for balance and whether the current game environment can handle it, and I've acknowledged it cannot. I am the one who is not just tossing hands up as 'whelp if Fozzie says it's okay...' Since Fozzie has done such a bang up job on those T3's and boosters, caps should be no problem.

It's not just about 'what looks cool.' It's about intriguing, challenging game play, which capitals currently do not have. The role that fits the design of player skill intensive and fun is actually triage carriers. Whether this change be an extra set of weapons(which point defense weapons have precedent in pretty much every sci-fi/spaceship 'thing' out there, though again, admittedly, the current balance is not designed for), or more varied roles, or choices, I'm willing to consider all options right now. You are currently saying 0 things I'm not aware of or don't know. The difference is I'm not hanging up on right this very instant, or whether its precisely more turrets. I'm speaking in a more generalized sense that capital warfare is not diverse, it is not particularly balanced, and it should not remain that way. Right now your choices are pretty much:
Get in a carrier and slowcat
Get in a carrier and Triage
Get in a dread and blap til you get blapped or they are all blapped
Get in a super and slowcat
Get in a titan and DD then run away for 10 minutes, if you are lucky, otherwise just open bridges... yay.
Or get in a carrier/super and get killed while ratting.

With some variation on those themes, but basically that.

Point defense, or subsystems locking a carrier into a specific role of fighters or logistics or cargo, or splitting carrier drone bays into fighters and much much smaller drone bays, or titans/supers being massively overhauled, or new cap classes which don't triage or siege but use cap mods, any of the hundreds of ideas floating out there, w/e it is that makes caps more engaging and more challenging while attempting to maintain balance, that's what I'm for. And if it looks cool then awesome. I don't think that thing, at this juncture, is stick more guns on them and yay! But I do acknowledge that Eve is an ever changing GAME, and while it has limits, it has alot of flexibility as well, and some of that flexibility shouldn't just be ignored because Fozzie wants to do something he can't even make work with the ship class which needs it most, command ships. Or because Pre-T3 rebalance 'balance' can't handle it, it should be flat out ignored as not possible at any point in time. Especially on a ship class that everyone knows needs alot of attention.

But this also isn't pre Jump fatigue anymore. It's exceedingly painful to move a large number of caps any great distance. The threat of caps online is much less severe than before. And unlike swishtars, caps are much more challenging and sloooowwwww to move around. Who's to say in a few structure iterations it won't be even more challenging, or less of an advantage?

@Zan: Who doesn't want to kill supers or caps? And who doesn't think that carriers need a nerf bat factory to the face? I'm perfectly fine with them having that stupidly huge drone bay being broken down, with carriers being changed considerably. I'm also perfectly fine with changing them in ways that make them more challenging, more engaging and intelligent, because 'Assign drones' F1 -F3 on the guy who needs armor is awesome gameplay.... I'm also not saying bashing is completely gone. It is looking to be heading out the door, though it will take a couple years. Then there are going to be 2-3 classes sitting around without a primary job anymore.

@FT: Again, who cares if you own 1 carrier/dread or 200? My dreads are some of my favorite ships, for many the same reasons you feel dreads are some of the best balanced ships in Eve. I'm not suggesting fit super tracking neutron blaster cannon II's on all capitals and screw sub-caps. I am suggesting that as Eve evolves, and roles/environment change, why can't caps? I'm only looking at ways to make caps in general more balanced, viable, and streamlined with the rest of Eve. And more importantly, ways to make them require more player input/attention/engagement/choice/etc. Example: Triage carriers and dreads.

Slowcats are obscene in the present scheme of things, but would be a whole different story if they could only field 2-3 flights of sentries and then fighters. Or had 1 less high, or *Insert proposed fix* You're not going to hear me say 'Caps don't need any work. They are Just fine.' But I'm also not going to say that they should be stuck in roles designated to them in an old sov system which required hours of bashing to get anywhere just because we're afraid of disrupting the balance for a time, or exploring different directions. Example: Swishtars and Drone assist carriers, or AoE titans or *insert game balance issue which required a few iterations to get right*

So, if you gave Dreadnoughts a utility highslot, would you put any restrictions on what I could fit there? Because I can totally think of a few times it would have been really nice to have a cloak on my Dreadnought, without having to give up a gun or the Siege module.

Like you, I want to see fun and viable roles for Capitals and Supercapitals.

I agree that Triage Carriers and Siege Dreadnoughts are well-designed, fun ships to fly. If you can find something that needs massive repairs or massive amounts of damage. Sovereignty structures are no longer that. We are told that structures as a whole will not be that in the future.

I think the key to a lot of this is adjusting the food chain. Cruisers, especially HAC's, have been too good the past few months. Typically, Eve is designed around the general idea that Eve ships are designed to prey on ships one class below them, but have increasing trouble with ships smaller than that. Unfortunately, this is currently broken. I'm not saying that this ideal has ever been met, but this is how it has been explained to me over the years:

Frigates < Destroyers < Cruisers < Battle Cruisers < Battleships < Capitals < Supercapitals

Frigates become viable against Battle Cruisers and up
Destroyers become viable against Battleships and up
Cruisers become viable against Capitals and up
Battleships become viable against Supercapitals

This is not to say that Frigates own all ships larger than Cruisers, just that they are not easy prey, and can be a viable threat in the right hands, or with the right numbers.

Unfortunately, at various points over the past eight years, one doctrine or another has totally dominated. For a while, it was AOE Titans. Then it was tracking Titans. Then it was Drakes and Hurricanes. Then it was Boot Carriers and Supercarriers. Then it was T3's. Then it became Ishtars and other Cruisers.

Frigates are natural prey for Destroyers, but larger ships have a more difficult time killing Frigates. Unfortunately, Eve looks more like this right now:

Cruisers > Frigates
Cruisers > Destroyers (except maybe the new T3D's, which appear to be replacing T1 Cruisers, Frigates, and T1 Destroyers).
Cruisers > Battle Cruisers
Cruisers > Battleships

If CCP can revitalize the Battle Cruiser and Battleship classes (which are symbiotic to a huge extent), they can restore some balance to this equation. That is why two of the best threads on this forum are Battle Cruisers and Battleships.

To me, good balance in Eve means that every class of ship has a viable role - maybe not every single fight, but there is a genuine desire to bring along every class when able.

your fleet is your point defense

fozzie sov has not made caps redundant it has just made other ships more useful thus lowering the need for caps where sov is concerned however their roles everyplace else has stayed the same

What we really need is a Dark Blood Revelation that does zero dps but can fit 2 capital sized nuets and a Dread Guristas Pheonix that sports 2 capital ECM modules. Captal neuts are going to do what capital nuets do. Capital ECM (high slot module) would be able to jam sieged/triaged capitals and supers.