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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2015-06-25 14:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Mario Putzo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well)



Vexors are popular gankboats too.

What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.



Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.


Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#482 - 2015-06-25 15:06:48 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well)



Vexors are popular gankboats too.

What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.



Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.


Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


Except in this case, we know this isn't the case. Bashes don't hide any weapon system lack of use in actual combat.
Mario Putzo
#483 - 2015-06-25 15:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
afkalt wrote:

Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage)

http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg

Check out Combat Drone.

#1 in BS Damage
#1 in Cruiser Damage
#1 in HAC Damage
~Tied #1 in CBC Damage
~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles)

On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!)

Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence?

Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#484 - 2015-06-25 15:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Mario Putzo wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage)

http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg

Check out Combat Drone.

#1 in BS Damage
#1 in Cruiser Damage
#1 in HAC Damage
~Tied #1 in CBC Damage
~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles)

On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!)

Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence?

Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway.

That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#485 - 2015-06-25 15:55:49 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage)

http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg

Check out Combat Drone.

#1 in BS Damage
#1 in Cruiser Damage
#1 in HAC Damage
~Tied #1 in CBC Damage
~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles)

On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!)
........................................
.


yea, they are good and easy to use; now let's make them bad and hard to use and the game will be better... Blink
Mario Putzo
#486 - 2015-06-25 16:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Terra Chrall wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


You mean something like this (CCP Quant says this is strictly PVP damage)

http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg

Check out Combat Drone.

#1 in BS Damage
#1 in Cruiser Damage
#1 in HAC Damage
~Tied #1 in CBC Damage
~Tied #2 in Frigate Damage (with Lasers and Projectiles)

On top of this, they are good for smashing structures, they are good for PVE, they are economical, they are easy to use (AFKTars!)

Head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd across most subcapital hull sizes, its not even a contest, and what do all those #1's have in common. The ability to field Sentry Drones. Frigates can't and drones are not the #1 damage type...coincidence?

Perhaps its time to knuckle down on sentry damage, remove them from Cruisers and HACs where its not even a contest comparatively...at least on BS and BC the damage is more comparable to other weapon types and recent tweaks to sentries may put them more in line on these hulls anyway.

That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year.


They have given us Data for this year. Droneboats are #1 in nearly every category according to CCP Fozzie in a statement he made not even a week ago.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7KTN7aIgAEZNHJ.jpg:largeAlso CCP Quant has updated that graph it seems http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2rv6yl/damage_profiles_by_ship_group_and_weapon_type/ inculdes data up to Jan '15, so is missing only 5 months, but CCP Fozzie has filled us in on how changes in the past 5 months have progressed......more of the same.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#487 - 2015-06-25 16:16:56 UTC
Drones are #1, but that does not mean drone boats are.

Everything and it's dog can put out at least a few drones. That might skew those numbers just a tad.
Mario Putzo
#488 - 2015-06-25 16:18:07 UTC
gascanu wrote:

yea, they are good and easy to use; now let's make them bad and hard to use and the game will be better... Blink


Removing them from Cruisers would make the game better. You dont see frigs ripping around with RLML, or Cruisers with RHML do you? Let them do it, would the problem be with the hulls? Or would it be the fact you have ships fitting weaponry that is designed to specifically counter their like sized counterparts?
Mario Putzo
#489 - 2015-06-25 16:19:25 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Drones are #1, but that does not mean drone boats are.

Everything and it's dog can put out at least a few drones. That might skew those numbers just a tad.


and yet Fozzies list distinctively states that drone boats are #1, not drones. Cart before the horse and all that.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2015-06-25 16:23:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.


Because of the no ammo/no cycle thing, it's why lasers are up there too.

Even if they are crap at everything else, they will still be economically superior/easier on the pilot/afk-able.

Or show the values split out, I don't mind.

Lumping it together can easily mask poor systems - for example if something is ONLY used to grid HPs but never used in ship to ship combat, that's a huge problem - lumping it all as one masks this big time.


Except in this case, we know this isn't the case. Bashes don't hide any weapon system lack of use in actual combat.


My point remains in general terms in that HOW a weapon is used, what it shoots, is very relevant and -missing- data.

For example, I suspect lasers aren't as well represented as the charts suggest because HP bashes are good for them.

Is bashing PvP? Sure I suppose, but data like this isn't much use to discern actual combat balance....the data is too high level.

To be clear, I'm not saying drones are fine - what I'm saying is that without lower granularity on the figures an accurate assessment of just how out of whack compared to others just isn't possible for us.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#491 - 2015-06-25 16:32:07 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst/Brutix ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers/BCs as well)

I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP.

If you want to put thing into hull sizes T3 destroyers (no drones) hands down win the damage war for destroyers with projectiles being at the top.

Also almost all the damage coming from T3 cruisers is non-drone damage, if you combined this with the HAC category the numbers get a lot closer and might even favor other weapons. If you combine all cruisers, drone win out, but projectile and hybrids are not as far off people would like to think.

Again, I am not saying more balance is not needed, I just think people looking at damage charts and paper DPS numbers as the primary means to argue the case for drone/sentry nerf neglect the larger picture that CCP uses for balance. I am glad that CCP has mentioned that they think the AEGIS balance pass on Ishtars will be the last one for a while, because it will take time for people to adjust and new metas to come to light.

A more interesting statistic would be damage divided by number of ships flown in a type. So you could see if the damage done category is inflated because of wide spread use of a ship. Thus another ship or weapon system might be more efficient at dealing damage, but is harder to fly, skill, or fit and thus not represented in the charts and summaries we have seen linked in this thread.
Mario Putzo
#492 - 2015-06-25 16:34:12 UTC
I think Lasers are adequately represented, considering the "speed" of combat these days, and the kiteyfag approach to fleet PVP, add on top of that Amarr being notoriously limited in mid slot options, and you have a recipe for poor tracking and bad damage application, resulting in a low damage profile, and thus lack of interest from the theorycrafters who recognize it probably isn't worth the effort to use Lasers over other weapon systems who all have much better fitting options on their respective hulls.

But that is neither here nor there, and probably a discussion for a different thread. If it were just one weapon type being left behind i think that this argument would have some merit, but its missiles, its projectiles, its hybrids, they just don't stack up against drone damage application, or the effective engagement ranges of drone in general.

3 years of balance tweaking, and still not balanced. More work required.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2015-06-25 16:41:38 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull.

not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard.

please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED

your welcome CCP



It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships.

The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP.


give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way



Youa re jsut bad at using logic. The fact that the ishtar is the only used ship does nto mean the other drone ships are not better than the non drone ships. IF ishtar is 1st in quality and the domi is second.. why would anyone use the domi?

If you just REMOVE the ishtar from game, right now, other drone boat will replace it (very likely)..
Checking the current status is a lousy and horrible way to annalyse game balance, any good game designer knows that, and raise as well :P ... . You need to predict the effect of changes and thin k what would happen IF....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mario Putzo
#494 - 2015-06-25 16:44:40 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP.


Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have.

I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled.

I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#495 - 2015-06-25 16:54:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right....

Can someone double check me on this bit of math:


tempest
6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12
Fleet pest
6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10
Machariel
7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666
Vargur
4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666
Maelstrom
8 /.75 = 10.66666

So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets....

Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made?



Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships.

And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count.

Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time.

They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas.


I asked to make sure this was an intentional decision to have the tempest be the highest DPS projectile boat, beating a machariel and vargur, which are both in classes which usually see better DPS numbers than t1 hulls.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#496 - 2015-06-25 17:02:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP.


Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have.

I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled.

I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries.


They could of solved the Ishtar issue by making a heavy drone brawler for example but instead of dramatically changing the ship direction toward anything but the current complete toolbox it is, they decided to inch their way to where they want it to be while the meta is completely one sided right now as this ship is more polyvalent than anything before.

Every change will get more and more resistance by now because everybody gave in and bit the bullet and trained in the FOTY ship by now and will definately go "DON'T NERF ME BRO!!!" over it.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#497 - 2015-06-25 17:10:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

That data is 1.5 years old. Since then Ishtars have lost about 1/3 of their sentry damage, Sentries and now DDAs have had nerfs lowering drone dps across the board. I am not saying CCP doesn't need to keep an eye on it, but it likely needs to rest for several months and see what damage a chart for 2015 looks like after all the changes so far this year.


They have given us Data for this year. Droneboats are #1 in nearly every category according to CCP Fozzie in a statement he made not even a week ago.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7KTN7aIgAEZNHJ.jpg:largeAlso CCP Quant has updated that graph it seems http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2rv6yl/damage_profiles_by_ship_group_and_weapon_type/ inculdes data up to Jan '15, so is missing only 5 months, but CCP Fozzie has filled us in on how changes in the past 5 months have progressed......more of the same.

Thanks for the updated chart, too bad it includes 2 years of data the precedes the significant nerfs. Unfortunately the major Ishtar damage nerf came in March 2015 when it lost 25% damage bonus to sentries, then the nerf to all sentries dps, tracking, and range, and does not include this additional balance pass coming in July all of which have brought drone ship dps down, and the damage of the Ishtar the most significantly. We need to see damage charts for July through December of 2015 to see if there is has been a change made.

And if you keep the last 2 years in the chart it skews current balance as it has 2 years of favored metas that obfuscate what damage types are really dominant. It might still be drones, but these current charts can't tell us that. Also there is a screen shot of Fozzie posting a list of drone ships leading PvP damage for the month, but I don't see a date so do not know what time period is represented by the comment.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#498 - 2015-06-25 17:11:21 UTC
My only issue with the DDA nerf, is now the Ishkur sucks even more. Use to be the the Ishkur was the go to T2 drone frig. Now it has been overshadowed by the Tristan, Algos, Astero, and Worm; which none are T2.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#499 - 2015-06-25 17:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Mario Putzo wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

I think you give the Myrmidon too much credit, I think because of ships like the VNI & Ishtar you are more likely to find other BCs used more than the Myrmidon. And wanting to discard a form of PvP damage, such as ganking, is to pull selective data to force a false conclusion. If other weapon systems are better than drones for ganking then that is a consideration in the balancing of weapon systems. Just as structure bashing can inflate numbers for drones and lasers, because they are better suited for grinding. Fleet combat is not the only combat, roaming gangs, small gangs, FW, gate camps all have slightly different game play. And while Ishtar's are widely used in fleets, you are more likely to see Vexor/VNI elsewhere for PvP.


Myrm has the top applied DPS, top range, while sporting the second highest tankability (next to Drake). I would say many folks don't give it enough credit. I don't discard the damage from ganking which is why i specifically mentioned it. Bashing to me is not PVP, it is PVE, if you are fighting another fleet at a POS, then its PVP...but you probably won't have your gang of Oracles on grid at that point either not that bashing is relevant really since it is going to be going the way of the dodo in coming months, and then Lasers will likely be buffed because well thats really all they have.

I personally think the Ishtar is fine, it was fine months ago, it was fine last year, it is a good ship, and i will argue until i am blue in the face, Sentry Drones do not belong on Cruiser sized ships. They are the common thread between all the "strong" ships and why Vexors and VNIs are commonplace in small gang, and why Ishtars are the go to for big fleets, and why Gilas had their bonuses overhauled.

I don't think the Ishtar should have been tweaked at all tbh, because its not the ship, it never was the ship. Its the Sentries.

I was not arguing that the Myrmidon is not a strong ship, I was arguing that it is not likely used as much as other BCs right now. My example of structure basing was one of comparison only.

I think Sentries are only part of the problem. The problem is there is no other ranged drone and that is why I am against limiting their use on cruisers. I have not seen a lot of Vexors using sentries due to limited bandwidth and bay, they are very limiting there. VNI seem to use both mobile and sentries but in most of my encounters it is mobile drones.

Mobile drones are viable and contribute a lot to the damage charts, but are better suited for gang, low sec, and FW where smart bombing firewall ships are less common. And being slow, destructible, and having to travel are significant limitations. Sentries are needed to round out drone boat attack profiles. Removing them from cruisers might be the long term solution but there has to be a replacement option that makes sense first.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#500 - 2015-06-25 17:31:52 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right....

Can someone double check me on this bit of math:


tempest
6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12
Fleet pest
6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10
Machariel
7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666
Vargur
4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666
Maelstrom
8 /.75 = 10.66666

So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets....

Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made?



Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships.

And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count.

Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time.

They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas.


I asked to make sure this was an intentional decision to have the tempest be the highest DPS projectile boat, beating a machariel and vargur, which are both in classes which usually see better DPS numbers than t1 hulls.


the vargur was already behind the maelstrom....
there is no hard rule on that. Probably they will make the fleet version be DIFFERENT. The machariel itself already has lots of things on its favor, mobility, warp speed.. HUGE falloff.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"