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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Spurty
#461 - 2015-06-25 03:55:56 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity.

If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML?


I'll vote for this.

But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside?

You can say "No to glass cannons" if you train Gal is the message. Needs 'balancing'.

Every person grumbling, you are just bad for EVE. Let the DEVs do the right thing here.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#462 - 2015-06-25 04:10:52 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Both the Ishtar and the Navy Vexor are absurd, these changes are okay but you're still side stepping the real issue which everyone with sense has said over and over... you can't have battleship dps and range on a cruiser hull and call that balanced, it's not just battleship dps either it's one of the best weapon systems in the game for range/damage/ damage application/ewar immunity.


I can support this...

Fourteen Maken wrote:
If this is okay how about a Cerberus/Navy Caracal with fitting bonus for RHML?


... but not this. To quote an old Simpson's episode:

Lisa: Two wrongs don't make a right, Bart.
Bart: Yes they do.
Lisa: No they don't.
Bart: Yes they do.
Lisa: No they don't!
Bart: Yes they do!
Lisa: Dad!
Homer: Two wrongs make a right, Lisa.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#463 - 2015-06-25 06:00:07 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
But seriously, a weapon system which has NO CAP issues, NO AMMO issues, NEVER RELOADS AND does BS class weapon damage, without any downside?
I'm for the change, but the cap independence and dps are the only parts of that that are true (with the dps in part being battleships sucking). And reloading a drone ship isn't exactly easy without stopping a fleet completely.
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#464 - 2015-06-25 06:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Crees
So, let me make sure I've got this right.

[Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets.

Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets.

Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system?

Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#465 - 2015-06-25 06:54:12 UTC
So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right....

Can someone double check me on this bit of math:


tempest
6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12
Fleet pest
6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10
Machariel
7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666
Vargur
4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666
Maelstrom
8 /.75 = 10.66666

So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets....

Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#466 - 2015-06-25 07:02:32 UTC
Sean Crees wrote:
So, let me make sure I've got this right.

[Aegis] Tempest: 6 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 7.5 / .625 (37.5% RoF bonus) = 12 effective turrets.

Machariel: 7 turrets * 1.25 (25% damage bonus) = 8.75 / .75 (25% RoF hull bonus) = 11.66 effective turrets.

Is it intended that a Tier 1 battleship is to do more DPS than a pirate faction battleship with the same weapon system?

Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better.


I think we both were posting at the same time on this.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#467 - 2015-06-25 07:35:05 UTC
Sean Crees wrote:


Not to mention it will also now be better than the Tempest Fleet Issue, which is supposed to be the same ship but better.


I do not necessarily disagree with your other points, but Navy Faction Battleships are not always just "the same ship but better." The Navy Dominix, which I find is a great ship, still retains the old-style Dominix gun bonuses.

Not to mention that DPS is not the only important statistic separating the Machariel from the Tempest. There are many other ways in which the Machariel is superior.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#468 - 2015-06-25 10:26:42 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
So, Jessica Slow pointed out that the tempest now would have more effective turrets than a machariel if we are doing the math right....

Can someone double check me on this bit of math:


tempest
6 x 1.25 / .625 = 12
Fleet pest
6 x 1.25 / .75 = 10
Machariel
7 x 1.25 / .75 = 11.6666
Vargur
4 x 2 / .75 = 10.6666
Maelstrom
8 /.75 = 10.66666

So the tempest has 2 more effective turrets than the fleet pest and roughly 2/5 of one more than a machariel, with the ability to fit 2 launcher in addition to the 12 effective turrets....

Is this intentional, overlooked or a math error I and Jessica made?



Rise said there will be a pass on all the battleships soon. Probably they have other things planned for these ships.

And it is NOT as if these ships were not massively superiro to tempest in other regards. For example EHP of fleet tempest is in a completely different level. The machariel has a falloff bonus that makes it effectively have MUCH higher DPS than the new tempest. BOTH have MORE low slots, and taht means MORE damage mods that neutralize the turret count.

Stop spreadsheet PVP, the capability of shps are not made by a single value. The tempest was worthless and this treatment was needed for a LONG time.

They probably have pland to make the fleet temepst have a different role, the same wayt hat the navy geddon and navy domi have different focus than their t1 grampas.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#469 - 2015-06-25 12:07:47 UTC
ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull.

not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard.

please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED

your welcome CCP

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#470 - 2015-06-25 12:41:49 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


This.

You just nerfed the dps of a curse to nerf the ishtar.

Did the Curse really need its dps nerfed? Focus your nerfs on the ship and not a weapon system that is used by many balanced ships. You cant say that Heavy/Med/Light drones are overpowered....yet...you nerf their damage...

Logic. Use it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#471 - 2015-06-25 12:56:22 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull.

not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard.

please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED

your welcome CCP



It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships.

The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#472 - 2015-06-25 13:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: TinkerHell
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull.

not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard.

please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED

your welcome CCP



It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships.

The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP.


So lets nerf the Tristan, Vexer, Myrm, Curse, Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Sentinel etc because a few ships use Sentry drones. Normal combat drones are stupidly easy to counter with smartbombs, especially in fleet warfare.

A Geddon isnt 'superior' because of its drone bay.


If you have drones that are OP on certain ships because they are complimented by the fact the Devs decided to give them DUMB tracking bonuses on the hulls in the first place surely you should address the bonuses of the ships. If needed nerf the weapon system, which is SENTRY drones and not DRONES.

How would you feel if to nerf Beams they decided to nerf Pulses at the same time?
Mario Putzo
#473 - 2015-06-25 13:34:46 UTC
<<< still doesn't understand why DDA's have to change when the issue is, and always has been Sentry Drones. The problem is a Cruiser sized ship fielding what amounts to Battleship sized weaponry...let us slap on some RHMLs on Cerbs and then tell us its not the weapon systems, but the Hull.
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#474 - 2015-06-25 14:09:11 UTC
There are so many interesting and well worked out proposals how to bring the ishtar + sentries in line with the other ships, this won't help imo - after hundreds of pages of feedback concerning the isthar I feel a bit disappointed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#475 - 2015-06-25 14:09:36 UTC
Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot?

I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case.
Mario Putzo
#476 - 2015-06-25 14:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why do some droneboat still have bonus to both projection (optimal) and application (tracking) on the same bonus slot?

I can understand this happening for mobile drones when they get both speed and tracking since the speed would completely ruin their tracking potential but for an immobile sentry, it's not the case.



Probably for the same reason Heavy Missiles got dumpstered with the Drake changes. CCP Rise and Fozzie aren't focused on balance, they are focused on shifting metas, where in one type of ship or weapons system is dominant and as such they push players into using said ship or weapon type. Heavy Missiles when they were nerfed sucked, their saving grace was sitting on the Drake whose other stats carried their shittiness the sole reason a ****** weapon system was nerfed into obscurity...to step on the Drakes throat. (which was a ****** ship anyway and the sole reason it was so popular was because insurance was broken and the Drake unfitted actually gave you more money back from insurance than the hull cost on market)

Also in before Heavy Missile chucking ships become flavor of the month...hopefully it doesn't turn out to be flavor of the next three years like Drones Online has been.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#477 - 2015-06-25 14:37:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
ok i have to post this... CCP is nerfing all droneboats to oblivion because of one broken hull.

not too long ago you guys rebalanced the drones and now you are nerfing it just because one hull is severly broken, the Ishtar what is your solution. nerf DDA`s and nerf 3 out of the 4 sentry drones (the fourth is hardly ever used) damaging ALL other drone ships from medium to hard.

please dont implement the DDA and sentry changes and JUST fix the Ishtar make it a deadly ships with heavy drones but NOT sentries and the problem is SOLVED

your welcome CCP



It is not only the ishtar. The drone boats are plain superior to other hulls on same class. Just compare the capabilities of the dominix and geddon against other battleships.

The capability of fielding a lot of DPS with a great range and better tracking than large long range guns, while leavign the high slots free for neuts etc means they are a bit OP.


give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Mario Putzo
#478 - 2015-06-25 14:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst/Brutix ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers/BCs as well)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#479 - 2015-06-25 14:46:41 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well)



Vexors are popular gankboats too.

What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.
Mario Putzo
#480 - 2015-06-25 14:51:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

give me some examples because the only droneboats used in PVP are ishtars and sometimes domis in large battles i dont think domi`s are OP in this way but if you think so plz enlighten me. but dont just ramble something use arguments and some form of evidence that these ships are OP in any way


Perhaps the fact droneboats are by and far the largest sources of damage and destruction at (nearly) every ship hull size sub capital (Source CCP Fozzie made a statement regarding this https://embed.gyazo.com/45277828e1b46c214fe892021888099a.png)

(and im sure if you ignored Catalyst ganking in HS they would be up there for Destroyers as well)



Vexors are popular gankboats too.

What would be more interesting is removing structure bashes from these numbers. They skew it hardcore to lasers and drones for obvious reasons.



Why would you ignore structure bashing, if people are using drones over other weapons for that in such numbers that it heavily skews total damage, then that is only another example of why drones are heads and shoulders above the competition.