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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#421 - 2015-06-24 00:25:36 UTC
I swear, everyone cries about the Ishtar and now everyone cries about the Ishtar...

Keep doing what you're doing CCP Rise..

And Fozzie, you've been getting a lot of heckling lately.
Ignore the keyboard warriors and keep doing what you're doing.
Take their keyboards away and put the man in front of their face; suddenly they become friendly and thankful.

Keep your heads high men... You're doing a good job in my book.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#422 - 2015-06-24 03:16:41 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I hate the change.
Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting


No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it.

As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk.


Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes).
Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember).

Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues.

Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me.



It's a T1 battleship. It has no right WHATSOEVER competing with pirate or faction hulls, but it does.

It is in fact SO GOOD that the navy version is garbage for PvE by comparison.

You set far too much stock in paper DPS to boot.


You, sir, suck.

First, since when being half as good is "competing"?
Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship.
And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.
Gerald Mardiska
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#423 - 2015-06-24 03:55:54 UTC
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO LEAVE THE ISHTAR ALONE Cry
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#424 - 2015-06-24 04:43:31 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:


You, sir, suck.

First, since when being half as good is "competing"?
Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship.
And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.


1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them?

2) if not using guns, you're given several utility high to take advantage of.


You can either fit guns and add DPS for PVE, or fit neuts and kill them with drones for PVP.

Just because you can field a full flight of sentry drones doesn't mean you should have equal DPS with those drones as a brawler BS.

You have long range, damage selection, your damage is immune to neut, utility highs, no ammo consumption (this matters a lot for missile boats as T2 and navy missiles aren't really that cheap), and you have the element of surprise as far as what you're carrying. (Does he have sentries and are they long or close range, lights, heavies, mediums, what type of damage, is he fitted for range of tracking, does he have geckos)

The fact that you expect to have all this and pirate faction DPS is astounding.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#425 - 2015-06-24 05:12:40 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them?


If i want to use the from CCP intended armor ishtar : i can't use guns. No power left to fit a Tank and guns/neuts.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#426 - 2015-06-24 05:38:58 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:


You, sir, suck.

First, since when being half as good is "competing"?
Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship.
And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.


1) both Domi and Ishtar can fit guns... Ever think of using them?

2) if not using guns, you're given several utility high to take advantage of.


You can either fit guns and add DPS for PVE, or fit neuts and kill them with drones for PVP.

Just because you can field a full flight of sentry drones doesn't mean you should have equal DPS with those drones as a brawler BS.

You have long range, damage selection, your damage is immune to neut, utility highs, no ammo consumption (this matters a lot for missile boats as T2 and navy missiles aren't really that cheap), and you have the element of surprise as far as what you're carrying. (Does he have sentries and are they long or close range, lights, heavies, mediums, what type of damage, is he fitted for range of tracking, does he have geckos)

The fact that you expect to have all this and pirate faction DPS is astounding.



1) Ishtar can't, either CPU or pg is going to fail. Domi surely can, and get another 180dps at 30km. Wooo... like I were saying, any long range gun platform can do better.
2) Utility highs are pretty much useless in PvE, except niche fits of course, but in general they do nothing.

I honestly don't care what you do with it in PvP. If you aren't bored to death with eve PvP, it's your problem. The problem is that battleship size weapon system on battleship class vessel is getting nerfed to be the worst ranged solution for PvE.
Missile boats have even better range and damage selection (drones with different damage types are different, missiles are not), and the ammo cost is definitely worth their 50% dps increase over Domi.

Now I have to retrain my drone boat pilot for something which doesn't just suck, because drones don't pull their weight in PvE anymore. So it's gonna be 6 months until I can play eve again with a missile boat this time, if they aren't nerfed by that time.

The fact that you bring "pirate faction DPS" in sentry drones discussion, knowing that after that change sentries are going to get "lol it tickled" dps in PvE, is an astounding act of near-criminal idiocy. They are HALF the pirate faction dps now, they are going to be LESS THAN HALF after this change.
Hullender
Biafra' State
#427 - 2015-06-24 06:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hullender
And anybody who trains drones is very likely going to train highbrids which is the worst weapon system for PVE. Doesn't look like these changes take into account there are people who don't PVP with these ships or take part in null blob fleets. After this change fitting an armor plate or dual reppers would be more difficult not to talk of guns and neuts. And then making an already slow cruiser even slower when the problem as everyone has stated is ishtar and sentries.
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
#428 - 2015-06-24 07:59:19 UTC
And he maketh my cup of tears to floweth over. :)

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#429 - 2015-06-24 09:00:10 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I hate the change.
Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting


No they are not. PvE = ISK farming and you're using drones because you can deploy dentries and laugh in their face with no ISK spent on ammo. Please be more precise as to which drone carrier you're using and how it's "behind" because I fail to see it.

As a frame of reference, I'm using a Muninn for my misssioning for pretty much the same reasons: artillery doesn't cost too much in ammo, and the speed keeps me alive. What are you fielding? Elaborate on why your favourite droneboat is behind. Then we'll talk.


Sentries are going to fall hard into +-600dps now, and EVERY faction has a ratting ship which is at least 50% above that in dps (I mean 900-ish for average ratting ships and 1300-ish for blingy ones - which are 100% better than best Dominix you can fit with those changes).
Ammo is not a problem, it doesn't cost half as much as people tend to think it is. And it is definitely worth the gap turret and missile ships have over drone ships now (at least 50%, remember).

Dominixes were already used as secondary fire with assisted drones, where they got down from primary role in the drone nerfbatting process of late. Now even secondary is better off with a long range turret or missile ship - at least 15% advantage even despite all the application issues.

Which means one thing - all those drone ships, drone rigs, half the gallente skills and all the drone SP have been rendered completely and utterly useless for PvE. Thanks a lot Rise, nice way to screw 5 months of sub off me.



It's a T1 battleship. It has no right WHATSOEVER competing with pirate or faction hulls, but it does.

It is in fact SO GOOD that the navy version is garbage for PvE by comparison.

You set far too much stock in paper DPS to boot.


You, sir, suck.

First, since when being half as good is "competing"?
Second, if you think Navynix is garbage, Guristas and Serpentis know well otherwise. The fact that it's faction-locked while Dominix is not is the only limiting factor. Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship.
And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.



Wormholes don't have ticks. Come back to me when you put your big boy pants on.

Stop whining like a little girl that your precious afk "ticks" are hurt. No-one, literally no-one, gives a flying ****.

If you think this minor DDA nerf (and believe me, it's minor) renders them unusable, then I've nothing to tell you. Farmville is over there>>>>>
Luscius Uta
#430 - 2015-06-24 09:26:07 UTC
I support those changes, especially to DDAs. Drone boats are broken, since their DPS is way too high for a weapon system that can do selectable, capless damage. That means there's rarely any reason to use anything else (if autocannons did more DPS than blasters and pulse lasers nobody would use those two, and now on a somewhat related note I just thought of Revelation who needs more love).
Don't want the Ishtar to be nerfed too much however - people will just use VNIs and Gilas if you do that. I wish the Ishtar was more like it was before HAC rebalance, when it still had drone damage and range bonuses as well as a large drone bay, but no bonuses to tracking or optimal range.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Luscius Uta
#431 - 2015-06-24 09:49:57 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
I hate the change.

I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change.
Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about).

Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about.


My 900 DPS Gila and Ishtar say otherwise, after these changes they'll have what, 20 DPS less? Hardly any difference. But CCP could nerf something even by a 0.0001% and there will still be people who fail at math who will whine how their favourite ship is now going to be useless.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#432 - 2015-06-24 10:22:03 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Otherwise it's a proper 1300-ish dps ratting ship.
And I set not too much stock in paper dps. Honestly, people who can't manage consistent 20 million ticks shouldn't even talk.

Well, if you're getting 1300 dps you aren't using rails and likely aren't using sentries, so you aren't actually hitting for more than about 70% of your dps if you're good. So you are putting too much in paper dps.
If you're going to go full '1337 pve' on us set a bar that can't be out done with 450 dps and a painter.

Beast mode Navydomi is still over 1500 dps and still a scary if rare sight.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#433 - 2015-06-24 10:25:21 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Beast mode Navydomi is still over 1500 dps and still a scary if rare sight.


Absolutely, but are almost always a sub par choice for general PvE work. Many other hulls are a far more efficient choice.

They are very nice in PvP, however, for me remain overshadowed by vindicators - accept no substitute at those ranges.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#434 - 2015-06-24 10:46:46 UTC
Navy Dominix compares very favorably even in PvE with the standard Dominix. You just take that extra mid slot and stick a Omnitracker in it, and you have most of a standard Dominix with 50% more tank and bonused rails. I'm not sure what 'completely overshadowed' means in hyperbole land, but the N.Domi is a fine ship for PvE, if you are silly enough to still be bothering with the hassle of drone eating AI.

I don't like the DDA change myself. Drones were a joke for almost as long as they have been in game. Finally given a fair shake in PvP they have gotten nothing but nerfed since the Domi finally got bonuses making it a full drone ship instead of a split weapon ship. Sooner or later they are going to be relegated to being laughed off the field again, and be in a worse place for PvE than ever before.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#435 - 2015-06-24 11:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Navy Dominix compares very favorably even in PvE with the standard Dominix. You just take that extra mid slot and stick a Omnitracker in it, and you have most of a standard Dominix with 50% more tank and bonused rails. I'm not sure what 'completely overshadowed' means in hyperbole land, but the N.Domi is a fine ship for PvE, if you are silly enough to still be bothering with the hassle of drone eating AI.

I don't like the DDA change myself. Drones were a joke for almost as long as they have been in game. Finally given a fair shake in PvP they have gotten nothing but nerfed since the Domi finally got bonuses making it a full drone ship instead of a split weapon ship. Sooner or later they are going to be relegated to being laughed off the field again, and be in a worse place for PvE than ever before.


The fitting is a lot harder than you think, it is not a generously resourced ship - the guns are necessary in order to make up for the projection shortfall leaving little room for DLAs (i.e. none) and you're paying through the nose for it to boot.

More isk outlay, more expenses in the form of ammo. All to approximately break even in applied DPS to rat ships?

No thanks. Not ever.

Unless you're running anoms point blank at 0 and using heavies, but let's leave edge cases with super convenient spawns aside, I think.

Look: Here is a domi and a vargur shooting a cruiser. http://i.imgur.com/aMx3myp.png For a dirt cheap, T1 hull compared to a billion isk T2 battleship - those lines are too damned close. I could get what, 5 domis to the cost of that vargur? Domi outstrips it at about 55km, is doing 75% of the damage from about 30km and that %age rises with range. Not bad for 20% of the cost.

I mean, the very fact the comparison is even up for debate tells a story. You don't see people comparing ravens and CNRs in the same breath, because it's ridiculous. The T1 shouldn't be at the races next to the faction for performance/cost.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#436 - 2015-06-24 11:27:01 UTC
CCP Rise, after looking at some fits and comparing old Ishtar to proposed Ishtar here are my thoughts.

Consider moving 200 Shield HP to Armor HP
Remove the Sentry Damage and HP bonus from the ship.
Leave the Powergrid at 780

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#437 - 2015-06-24 11:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Luscius Uta wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I hate the change.

I couldn't care less about PvP, it's boring anyway, but my PvE boats take a very serious hit from this change.
Drone PvE boats were already heavily behind all turret and missile based PvE ships after the last round of nerfbatting (well, nerfbat habitually avoided gewns, but catering to gewns by nerfing everyone else is what CCP is all about).

Can I get a drone SP refund? With this change drone boats become useless in PvE and that's the only kind of Pv I care about.


My 900 DPS Gila and Ishtar say otherwise, after these changes they'll have what, 20 DPS less? Hardly any difference. But CCP could nerf something even by a 0.0001% and there will still be people who fail at math who will whine how their favourite ship is now going to be useless.


oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar?
like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts?
you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums;

for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps...

p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed;
the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are...
tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#438 - 2015-06-24 12:00:46 UTC
Honestly you should have removed a midslot a year ago.

Better late than never I suppose.

Not today spaghetti.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#439 - 2015-06-24 12:05:47 UTC
gascanu wrote:
oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar?
like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts?
you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums;

for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps...

p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed;
the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are...
tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are

Fit any set of guns to an ishtar, now you have 900-1100 dps; it's a small group thing.

They're doing a bunch of small nerfs to the ishtar because it's actually weaker in the most common fits than when the HAC buffs happened. It's just so much easier on FC's that CCP wants to keep pushing until people stop using it as the everything fleet. And people won't stop because shooting the fleets guns for them is so much easier than trusting idiots.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#440 - 2015-06-24 12:22:56 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
gascanu wrote:
oh, can you pls link that 900 dps ishtar?
like really, can we stop bring ******** arguments, and focus on facts?
you know, like reall fittings and not the 50k m/s ships we sometime see on forums;

for example, a sentry ishtar will never get that kind of dps; assuming a heavy drones fit, a reality check will tell you that,with a few exceptions, about half of the time your drones will be travelling from a target to another, but yea, keep crying about paper dps...

p.s: ishtar need sentry optimal/tracking bonuses removed, ship is fixed;
the dda nerf is not really needed, esp since this is the 3rd 0r 4rth nerf in a row to sentry drones; like really, ishtar has been able too fit 5 sentrys since forever, and noone complained about it; the reall problems started with the last hac reballance , when ccp gave it optimal and tracking bonuses;add to this the new drones tracking mods and here we are...
tldr: dmg is not the reall problem, the tracking and 100 km optimall are

Fit any set of guns to an ishtar, now you have 900-1100 dps; it's a small group thing.

They're doing a bunch of small nerfs to the ishtar because it's actually weaker in the most common fits than when the HAC buffs happened. It's just so much easier on FC's that CCP wants to keep pushing until people stop using it as the everything fleet. And people won't stop because shooting the fleets guns for them is so much easier than trusting idiots.


i underlined the part you missed, but don't let facts stop you