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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

First post First post First post
Author
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#261 - 2015-06-22 21:37:24 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Roll

Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed.


^^
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#262 - 2015-06-22 21:54:54 UTC
Bunka en Daire wrote:
Why u just dont delete drone boats from game???
Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.

Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?

So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless...

Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom???

If this killed a whole year of your drone skills, then you have been flying the ship wrong Roll

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#263 - 2015-06-22 21:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
CCP Rise wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


Why not? That seems like the reasonable thing to do. First of all, a Vexor is a cruiser not a battlecruiser. Battlecruisers have already been nerfed into oblivion. Someone queue up the "Cahn ah bring mah drake" meme. When was the last time you actually saw any battlecruiser other than a tornado on a killmail? Don't even get me started on Command Ships.

Instead of dealing with the inherent problem of battleship weapons systems on cruisers, you do the same crap you pull every other time.."Let's nerf the **** out of stuff that isn't broken!" What other HAC gets battleship class weapons? Cerbs have HAMS/Heavy missiles. Zealots, medium lasers... you see where I'm going with this.

Just make drones downwards compatible, not upwards. HACs shouldnt be using sentries, plain and simple. Heavies? Maybe. But definitely NOT NOT NOT sentries. Reduce bandwidth on smaller ships so that they can't use 5 sentries at least. Maybe 2 or 3 max. Give them speed and tracking bonuses to heavies if you have to.

You want fleets to use battleships? Make them useful again. Stop wailing about power creep, and make these as they should be, weapons of war. Not sunshine and lollipops.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#264 - 2015-06-22 22:06:55 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Roll

Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries form the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed.


^^


Close; remove sentries from Ishtars altogether, or increase bandwidth necessary to fly them. If they don't want to lock upwards mobility of weapon class on drone ships, which is the dumbest thing I have heard in this game so far, then restrict their usage by class and increase the bandwidth needed to fly the damned things.

Geckos need 50 bandwidth each or some such nonsense, why not sentries like that? Carriers can be rebalanced in this way by changing their available bandwidth, as can battleships. Frigates can't use sentries, neither can dessies, but say ishtars with 2, eos with 4 and battleships with 5, while carriers still get a full complement of up to 10, 15 with DCM.

I'm sorry CCP, your ideas just don't hold water.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2015-06-22 22:09:00 UTC
Why not reduce its fitting and give it 100 bandwidth? Problem solved instead to completely destroying the ship. I personally think the Ishtar shouldn't have BS Weapons and if it does then it should hit less then what a myrim does. ( only can deploy 4 heavies or 4 sentries) remove bonus to drones.
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#266 - 2015-06-22 22:14:09 UTC
O2 jayjay wrote:
Why not reduce its fitting and give it 100 bandwidth? Problem solved instead to completely destroying the ship. I personally think the Ishtar shouldn't have BS Weapons and if it does then it should hit less then what a myrim does. ( only can deploy 4 heavies or 4 sentries) remove bonus to drones.


Cause it makes sense. Rise and Fozzy don't roll like that.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#267 - 2015-06-22 22:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
Back during the first BS balance pass I suggested the Tempest get a falloff bonus, and I reiterate that now.

Remove the damage bonus but give it an extra turret slot, it's not exactly short on spare highs.
Keep the rof at 5% & give it the 10% falloff bonus autocannon hulls enjoy.
Give the fleet issue the 7.5% rof bonus, along with 7 turrets. Spicy!

As for the Ishtar, there are a lot of good answers in this thread you should be thinking about. Having cruiser sized hulls be better than battleships is part of the reason battleships aren't used, geddit?

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#268 - 2015-06-22 22:38:41 UTC
Give drone ships bonuses to certain size of drones, i.e a Ishtar only has bonuses to medium drones, create medium and small sentry drones to compensate? Dominix only has bonuses to large drones, Tristan only bonuses to small drones and so forth.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#269 - 2015-06-22 23:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Galphii wrote:
Back during the first BS balance pass I suggested the Tempest get a falloff bonus, and I reiterate that now.

Remove the damage bonus but give it an extra turret slot, it's not exactly short on spare highs.
Keep the rof at 5% & give it the 10% falloff bonus autocannon hulls enjoy.
Give the fleet issue the 7.5% rof bonus, along with 7 turrets. Spicy!

I'd rather keep two heavy neuts.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#270 - 2015-06-22 23:06:53 UTC
TFI not getting bonus? So.. i guess arty being relavent gets a slap in the face again. Or the fact the t1 version does more dmg than fleet version.

Or are you planning different bonus for fleet variant? Could you maybe look into buffing cpu on t1 pest a smidge? Like 10-15 more CPU would help certain SOLO fits be more viable. Plus look at cargo space plz. Maybe its just me, but cargo seems lowish with all the ammo i need to make projectiles not super bad.
Fanny'Bandit
Covert Intelligence Agency
#271 - 2015-06-22 23:31:15 UTC
ok the changes to DDAs just made my domi ASOLUTELY garbege it was already subpar dps it is now 100 dps less then my drake thats kool

ok the fix should have been directed at ISHTARS only nerfing there ability to field sentrys period take away all there bonus to sentrys and make them a heavy drone platform as they should have been in the first place no sentry bs just HEAVYS and medium drones

the problem you guys are having and the reason you guys **** 80% of eve off every nerf you do is you do a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse cause there dps is **** and to get OK dps they will drop all there tank and be paper bags soooooo

heres away to attempt to fix the ishtar problem

1) turn ishtar into a heavy drone boat only that can only hold max 10 heavy drones instead of the current 15
2) remove all sentry ability FROM the ishtar no more passive and even put on it as a static CANNOT FIELD SENTRYS
3) vexor is a mini ishtar it should only be allowed to field medium drones as it is t1 cruiser
4) ADJUST the ishtars either slot layout or bonus to the ship so adjust them like so

gallente cruiser skill bonus per lvl
7.5% to heavy drone tracking and max velocity
10% to medium and heavy drone dmg and hitpoints (NO they should not be bonused to lights so they are not a jack of all trades)

heavy assault cruiser skill bonus per lvl
5000m bonus to medium and heavy drone control range
(this bonus im not sure of due to already getting velocity and tracking above)

if you force it to be one thing or the other then change its slot layout(since gallente is suppose to be ARMOR based do this)

SLOT layout

4 high slots
4 or 3 mids
and 7 lows

forceing it to become more of a armor ship or a paperthin shield ship


this would fix most of the problems with the broken ass ishtar but it would also stop your broad nerfs to stuff like the myrm which is bad already and dont need to be anyworse and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game and it will stop the stupid broad nerfs soo plz dont broad nerf and nerf the ship that needs nerfed
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#272 - 2015-06-22 23:42:37 UTC
Fanny'Bandit wrote:
a broad nerf which already hurts bleeding ships like domis/myrmidon are hardly seen and now its gonna be worse......

.... and the domi which is slowly becomeing the worst battleship in the game

What...
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#273 - 2015-06-22 23:42:58 UTC
The only issue I have with this particular change is the inconsistency in tactics. We've had a couple tweaks to the ishtar and sentry drones in recent patches, and suddenly we change to a full blown sledgehammer episode. I personally do not fly the ishtar very much so I don't have a lot invested in this particular change, but I do worry about a couple issues that this nerf brings up. First, the balance team seems to have given up on gradual tweaks here which is something that's a bit worrisome. I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason. I do however like the fact that the balance team is trying to be proactive and shake up the meta by force, after being previously unsuccessful.
HaoSs Ragnarok
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2015-06-23 00:18:35 UTC
hm. Allot of nerfs in 1 go. Like the ishtar rebalance . but 40 powergreed seems a little to much. 20 should be a better number
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#275 - 2015-06-23 00:33:32 UTC
battle Barviainen wrote:
The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground


All of which are very strong as it is.
God's Apples
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#276 - 2015-06-23 00:42:03 UTC
Viserion Pavarius wrote:
Hey,

That DDA change not good imo. You are not nerfing the Ishtar specifically (what Needs to be done), you are nerfing every drone boat in the game.


That is exactly the point of the DDA nerf. How does nobody understand this?

Drones are too dominant. Thus, they are getting a slight nerf. How anyone can think the ishtar is the only OP drone boat in the game is beyond me.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#277 - 2015-06-23 01:15:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.
Will we be seeing something similar for the Hurricane? I find it odd that a Battlecruiser with double damage bonus, fit with 3 gyros does pretty pathetic damage in comparison with other Battlecruisers. It's almost feels like it only has one bonus.
Julian Sandcastle
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#278 - 2015-06-23 01:16:01 UTC
CCP: /me removes the Ishtar from the game.

Now you can feel happy that no one will fly the Ishtar anymore.

\o/ OP SUCCESS
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#279 - 2015-06-23 01:18:19 UTC
Torei Dutalis wrote:
I also always worry about changes that effect an entire weapon class, although in this case I do think that the DDA tweak here is within reason.
As you stated, there's definitely good reason for the entire drone class to be nerfed: Drone boats do the most damage across all classes of ships.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#280 - 2015-06-23 01:48:52 UTC
I love the Ishtar, but this is a sensible slap from the nerfbat that even I can accept is needed.

It's not a crushing blow, but it will weaken the ship.

On a sadder note - RIP 1100 DPS gank vexors :(. That DDA nerf hurts there.

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