These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#241 - 2015-06-22 20:48:21 UTC
Very impressive, you just hit the ball out of the park with this one Rise. The current drone meta is oppressive and is cutting the number of alternative viable compositions to a point where you'd be crazy not to use drones.

These changes seem to strike a good balance of hitting the most prolific offender the hardest while toning down drones in general by a small degree.

Also good to see some love for the Tempest, although it was a good ship before in my eyes, I guess the metrics were showing that it wasn't getting much use. With this change it should make a nano fit PvP Tempest more than viable. Please extend this change to the TFI also though.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#242 - 2015-06-22 20:48:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

While this is true, it doesn't answer why Sentries as a 'Battleship sized drone' have cruiser levels of tracking and sig res built into them. The Sig Res to 400 would be one of the biggest things you could change on Sentries that would stop them being one drone to rule them all, while still leaving them as an effective weapons system against large targets.
Unamed Vyvorant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2015-06-22 20:49:53 UTC
Rockstara wrote:
fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.

you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe

Any kind of cerberus
HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km
RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km
HML Cerb 500dps at 152km
without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles
can you fit ishtar for that distance?
Bell Heluene
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2015-06-22 20:54:03 UTC
All you had to do was remove the sentry bonus from the Ishtar. Just let the battleships play with sentry drones. That means none of this ship bonuses will affect sentries.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#245 - 2015-06-22 20:54:47 UTC
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:
Rockstara wrote:
fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.

you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe

Any kind of cerberus
HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km
RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km
HML Cerb 500dps at 152km
without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles
can you fit ishtar for that distance?


Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#246 - 2015-06-22 21:03:28 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:
Rockstara wrote:
fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.

you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe

Any kind of cerberus
HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km
RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km
HML Cerb 500dps at 152km
without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles
can you fit ishtar for that distance?


Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits?


No.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#247 - 2015-06-22 21:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Gremk wrote:
The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible.

And this is part of the problem with the Ishtar, going for its drones is suicidal and is not ever going to be a viable tactic while it has a 375m3 drone bay. If you think you can chew through 3 full flights of heavy drones or countless amounts of medium or lights and then still destroy the Ishtar itself before being vaporised; try it and see how it ends.

Only on ships like the standard vexor and the others with 250m3 and below, then to some degree the prospect of destroying the drones starts to become more viable.

That being said I'm fine with the Ishtar having a 375m3 bay as long as its drones aren't churning out some of the highest DPS on any cruiser hull in the game.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#248 - 2015-06-22 21:08:10 UTC
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:
Rockstara wrote:
fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.

you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe

Any kind of cerberus
HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km
RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km
HML Cerb 500dps at 152km
without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles
can you fit ishtar for that distance?


Go fit up a cerb fleet and fight an ishtar fleet. Tell me how that works out with that kinetic lock. Also missiles REQUIRE webs/TP to fully apply in most cases. Sentries/turrets do not.

You will not get that damage actually applied unless you have proper support. Heavy missiles would apply 300dps if youre lucky. HAMs could be outranged by just burning away from them while youre in sentry optimal.. and RLML.. that reload wont work well in fleets.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#249 - 2015-06-22 21:09:34 UTC
Good stuff. Not sure that the DDA nerf is enough, though.

For me, a major reason to use drones is the damage selection. I'd really like to see missile kinetic lock removed. That would help people move away from drones.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Unamed Vyvorant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2015-06-22 21:11:54 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Unamed Vyvorant wrote:
Rockstara wrote:
fit any HAC to do damage at 70 km. It's tough to get decent dps on such ships at that range. Except for the ishtar, it is ~100% better in terms of damage than the next best option.

you don't need 5% tweaks, you need a big axe

Any kind of cerberus
HAML Cerb 600dps at 65km
RLML Cerb 614dps at 102km
HML Cerb 500dps at 152km
without new missile modules, and 5%buff heavy missiles
can you fit ishtar for that distance?


Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits?

62k ehp 1744m/s 614dps at 70 (RLML) capstable
Any problem?
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#251 - 2015-06-22 21:14:49 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Gremk wrote:
The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible.

And this is part of the problem with the Ishtar, going for its drones is suicidal and is not ever going to be a viable tactic while it has a 375m3 drone bay. If you think you can chew through 3 full flights of heavy drones or countless amounts of medium or lights and then still destroy the Ishtar itself before being vaporised; try it and see how it ends.

Only on ships like the standard vexor and the others with 250m3 and below, then to some degree the prospect of destroying the drones starts to become more viable.

That being said I'm fine with the Ishtar having a 375m3 bay as long as its drones aren't churning out some of the highest DPS on any cruiser hull in the game.

In tight contests where ships are not alpha'd off the field, targeting drones is a smart tactic to ease enemy dps. Sentries don't call for logi support, so they go down easily when targeted. Yes the Ishtar's can redeploy many more but they have to move into drone optimal range to do it, giving more opportunities to catch the Ishtar with more of your own dps.

It is not the best tactic, but it does have a place. Much like firewalls, they are effective under the right circumstances, but useless other times.
big miker
Frogleap Factories
#252 - 2015-06-22 21:14:58 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
afkalt wrote:
What about fleet 'pest?

Screw that. Is it going to carry forward to the Vargur?

Big smile



Oh the thoughts of it Cool

Latest video: Ferocious 9.0 - Vertical Supremacy

Nano Naglfar!
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#253 - 2015-06-22 21:17:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Airi Cho wrote:

Do you have any kind of tank or cap stability to stay out of harm with those fits?


No.


Thought so
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#254 - 2015-06-22 21:17:27 UTC
We're still pretending that the problems with the AFK ISKtard are all PVP related?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2015-06-22 21:18:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

While this is true, it doesn't answer why Sentries as a 'Battleship sized drone' have cruiser levels of tracking and sig res built into them. The Sig Res to 400 would be one of the biggest things you could change on Sentries that would stop them being one drone to rule them all, while still leaving them as an effective weapons system against large targets.


Sentries do have 400 sig res, they just have very high base tracking at long ranges so it's not noticed as much. Bouncers have 0.017 base tracking, the best long range large turret has 0.014.

Also, the Ishtar and Dominix have both range AND damage bonuses, something no turret-based BS has.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2015-06-22 21:19:53 UTC
Kahless Monstrosity wrote:
Fix the ishtar and quit nerfing other drone boats, do you even think about the effects on other ships? Your stupid dps graph needs to be thrown away. Take sentrys away from ishtars, make them a armor boat, etc...

So now the already almost useless Super Capitals, get another nerf? Why do you continue to crap on supers/titans? Do you not care about them? If so just yank them out of the game and refund the SP..


The Dominix is far more overpowered than the Ishtar is.
Unamed Vyvorant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2015-06-22 21:21:46 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Go fit up a cerb fleet and fight an ishtar fleet. Tell me how that works out with that kinetic lock. Also missiles REQUIRE webs/TP to fully apply in most cases. Sentries/turrets do not.

You will not get that damage actually applied unless you have proper support. Heavy missiles would apply 300dps if youre lucky. HAMs could be outranged by just burning away from them while youre in sentry optimal.. and RLML.. that reload wont work well in fleets.

every ishtar fleet have huginn or rapier, with webs and TP, why you think that cerb fleet cannot have a recon i dont know. How you could otrange hams at 100km, but cannot outrange sentri drones, new midslot modules for missiles alowed for instant change from aplication of damage or range.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#258 - 2015-06-22 21:26:28 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
In tight contests where ships are not alpha'd off the field, targeting drones is a smart tactic to ease enemy dps. Sentries don't call for logi support, so they go down easily when targeted. Yes the Ishtar's can redeploy many more but they have to move into drone optimal range to do it, giving more opportunities to catch the Ishtar with more of your own dps.

It is not the best tactic, but it does have a place. Much like firewalls, they are effective under the right circumstances, but useless other times.

That is very true, where two fleets are able to maintain logi reps then going for the drones would become quite effective. I need to do more large gang PvP. *chuckles*
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#259 - 2015-06-22 21:30:27 UTC
Ships like the Arbitrator suffer needlessly from this change.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#260 - 2015-06-22 21:36:54 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
afkalt wrote:
What about fleet 'pest?

Screw that. Is it going to carry forward to the Vargur?

Big smile



Not sure the best PvE hull needs more Blink