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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#101 - 2015-06-22 16:39:12 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Masaaq wrote:
Rise, you misinterpret. Do not remove the ability to utilise sentries on cruiser hulls, but simply remove the optimal and tracking bonus of sentries from the Ishtar.
Sentries with no special optimal + tracking bonus would be fine on the Ishtar; turn it into an optimal range bonus for heavy drones or something so that they can operate outside of easy smartbomb range; that would keep the Ishtar in possession of a unique, interesting bonus without giving it game-wrecking damage projection.


Heavies on the Ishtar are already double-bonused. Smile

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

5000m bonus to Drone operation range
5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Projection & application Double-Bonused Long-range Battleship-class weapons on a cruiser and they don't see a problem. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
battle Barviainen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2015-06-22 16:39:58 UTC
The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#103 - 2015-06-22 16:41:43 UTC
Tarra Nobilii wrote:
I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall.

The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful.



I think there are a lot more drone ships which are currently in a *too good* or strong place than there are average drone ships which are going to get overly hurt by these changes. However, with the short development cycle time, there is plenty of opportunity for ships which are currently performing average (Like the Arbitrator) to receive some compensation if the DDA nerf hurts its viability competitively.

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Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#104 - 2015-06-22 16:42:35 UTC
battle Barviainen wrote:
[quote=Omnathious Deninard]

brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport

Yes, the slowest cruiser can certainly be caught. And IF you lose.. just fly away from the sitting duck.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#105 - 2015-06-22 16:43:23 UTC
One potential fix for the Ishtar and other drone boats is to redistribute (or create new) some of the drone augmentation modules to the high slots, give them similar fitting cost to weapons, and specialize some for sentries and make them only work x distance from the ship.

Now you don't have people complaining that fitting on drone boats is somehow wonky and uncompensated by having your guns shot out of space. If you have specialized sentry modules you have opportunity to create tradeoffs of mobility for ability.

Modules that would be good for this
- expand sentry engagement range to any target locked by dronehost. Only works on sentries within 10km of ship.
***becomes partiallh vulnerable to Damps, ECM, Neuts. Potentially affects drones from other ships, but leaves them vulnerable to being bombed since they are now in a tight(ish) pack.

-improve drone resist.

-repair all nearby drones(shield/armor/structure versions)
*** encourages ship to stay near drones.

Tons of others are not hard to imagine. Main point is to give value for ships to stay closer to their drones which impacts the worst complaints of Ishtars.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#106 - 2015-06-22 16:43:38 UTC
battle Barviainen wrote:
The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground


http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png
http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

Into the ground. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Skir Skor
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#107 - 2015-06-22 16:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Skir Skor
battle Barviainen wrote:
The DDA nerf might also be too broad as it wacks all the other drone boats into the ground


Not really, it's only a 2% loss of dps. Eve is already Drones Online and a slight nerf to the DDA will not change this. Drones still have great projection and application.

Rise tries to nerf the Ishtar but ends up giving it space for another DDA.......


Cya all in 6 weeks times, for the next round of nerfs to the Ishtar/Drones cause this won't fix it.
battle Barviainen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2015-06-22 16:44:06 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
battle Barviainen wrote:
[quote=Omnathious Deninard]

brawling ishtars are catch able compared to the sentry, it will also make alot of fun in smaller gangs as you'd need to kite them, remeber he pwg nerf will also remove some of the tank it can sport

Yes, the slowest cruiser can certainly be caught. And IF you lose.. just fly away from the sitting duck.


Enought webs and scrams and it's literally dead in the water
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2015-06-22 16:44:59 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Tarra Nobilii wrote:
I am concerned about nerfing all drone boats with this change. The proposal, specifically regarding the tempest, gives it massive DPS...when compared to its Amarr counterparts, it is a joke. The Armageddon will get nerfed by DDAs, the Apoc and Abaddon, while tanky, do anemic dps overall.

The DDA changes are also going to hurt a number of very good ships at present (how balanced they are is up for discussion); such as the Stratios, Nestor, Sin , Amarr recons, etc. While I agree that the ishtar is overly good, nerf to DDA is too broad...when coupled with a Tempest buff, things will be made imbalanced. The Rokh is terrible as a combat ship...is its role to be primarily a smartbombing ship? A cursory look at the killboards indicates that is the overwhelming use of that hull...seems wasteful.



I think there are a lot more drone ships which are currently in a *too good* or strong place than there are average drone ships which are going to get overly hurt by these changes. However, with the short development cycle time, there is plenty of opportunity for ships which are currently performing average (Like the Arbitrator) to receive some compensation if the DDA nerf hurts its viability competitively.


The last 9 months has been nothing but nerfs. Makes me sad that no ships get to rise to power and instead CCP is just focusing on flavor of the month/year fits because people use them. I'd really like the punisher to shine or I'd really like the arbitrator to be a good displacement for the crucifier. I really wish I had a reason to use the rupture for anything but arties and autocannons suck.

But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep"
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#110 - 2015-06-22 16:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalihira
Alexander McKeon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one.

Vexor: +50% damage & HP
Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP
Eos: +50% Damage & HP
Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy)
VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking

Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking
+25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range.

Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries.

The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.


You might wanna have a look at the dominix bonusses...

anyway, the PG and speednerf are not really needed, a further nerf on the sentry bonus is. Please do realize you are hurthing the armor version more then the shield version with those nerfs....
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#111 - 2015-06-22 16:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep"


Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets?

Nbd, maybe.

Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer.
Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer.

Get it? Good. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Sof0s
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#112 - 2015-06-22 16:47:27 UTC
Ishtar still op after the third nerf ......................................check
CCP still clueless why ishtar is op .................................check
waiting for next patch after Aegis for new drone nerf..... check
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#113 - 2015-06-22 16:47:42 UTC
While the navy issue ships often have different hull bonuses than the vanilla variety of the hull, the t2 ships have the same bonuses. Will the vargur being getting this increase in ROF?
PopplerRo
#114 - 2015-06-22 16:48:10 UTC
Maybe I'm over simplifying with the ishtar but why not either remove the sentry bonus all together or tether the ishtar to it's sentries. Too far away from your sentries and they stop working, easily solves the arms reach approach as to why ishtar is so strong
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#115 - 2015-06-22 16:48:14 UTC
Can we get a small look at ships like the Munin while your doing this? or should we wait a few more years?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#116 - 2015-06-22 16:48:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.

First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
  • -1 mid slot, +1 low slot
  • Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000
  • Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s
  • Agility going from .52 to .565
  • Power grid lowered from 780 to 740

    • Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.

    Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:

    Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%)
    Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)

    Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)

    Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%)
    Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%)
    Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%)
    Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)


    And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

    We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

    Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!


    Ddas should be hit harder. 10% T1 and 15%T2 for benchmark.

    Ishtar slot changes make ishtar slightly less thank, but open low slot for more nano / dda for le damage.

    Tempest change is pretty bad. As has been said ad nauseum, acs are a horrible weapon system. Tempeat needs a falloff bonus or ACs need a rebalance, before i will start getting excited. This playry rof bonus does not nearly help its anemoc dps at anything greater than 20k. As it stands now, pest is completly outclassed by so many other hulls. And certainly comes nowhere close to the more useful ac hulls in game (if they can be even called that.)
    Mario Putzo
    #117 - 2015-06-22 16:48:56 UTC
    How to fix the Ishtar.

    Remove Sentries.

    You are welcome.
    Rothar Luke
    Did he say Jump
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #118 - 2015-06-22 16:51:10 UTC
    Ishtar nerf ( As someone who loves Ishtar)

    Removing a midslot? I approve! However, editing the speed? Not so sure about that.

    DDA nerfs? I approve of this too!

    Tempest buff, good I guess? I don't fly Tempest >.>

    Please nerf Gila.
    Aryth
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #119 - 2015-06-22 16:51:30 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Alexander McKeon wrote:
    Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

    For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


    This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    I tend to agree with this. However, how many wiffs with the nerf bat is it going to take before you guys get dramatic?

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    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #120 - 2015-06-22 16:51:47 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    But apparently proposing any buffs to underpowered ships in a huge fog of nerfs is considered "power creep"


    Because perhaps the rest are in line and they funked up with cruiser drone bandwidths when DDAs were introduced, and again with Ishtar double-bonused sentries and enough cargobay to hold three sets?

    Nbd, maybe.

    Getting every cruiser to Vexor levels is not the answer.
    Getting every HAC to Ishtar levels is not the answer.

    Get it? Good. Smile

    Holy **** no body said "hurr get the power level to ishtar levels" like god damn you took that 0 to crazy in one post

    I said give under used ships a purpose. Theres no real reason to use a rupture especially when it only gets 4 guns with a double damage bonus is mediocre anyway.

    I really wish the punisher was good and didn't get scram kited by other brawl ships. I really wish I had a reason to use the rupture for anything, I really wish all those underpowered and under used ships that no one uses had a useable purpose but like I said anytime I propose "hey no one uses that ship, can we make it viable" is met with people like you who think that a buff on a rupture is the same as asking for it to be as powerful as the ishtar. The false equivalence is the worst strawman of my post I could possibly imagine.