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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Dermeisen
#1381 - 2015-06-16 14:14:30 UTC
I have spent quite some time reading this thread. The idea I like the best is keeping squad warp.

It may get us away from thinking in terms of blob allowing for a devolved fleet structure.

It would still impact larger fleets.

Honestly I think keeping the squad warp wouldn't be a compromise too far.

"Not the Boreworms!"
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1382 - 2015-06-16 14:20:49 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
I cannot believe that the rather intelligent playerbase of EvE is so blind. Did all the F1-monkeyery make you stupid all of a sudden?
You, as many others, seem to miss the point.

Providing warpins is a very fun activity. Its get the heart pumping. Everyone is relying on you. Here you can show off your skills and make the warpin even closer and better (ofc at more risk).
But it is overshadowed by current fleetwarps in combination with probing. Its hardly needed currently.

With the changes, an interceptor or cloaky frigate will be a very valuable asset.
For a Pilot to help his fleet, he does not need to be able to sit in a MNI or Ishtar with perfect rekking-skills. Then he'll need low training time required, only 30mil for a a fitted fast ship and a little experience of manual piloting.
I dont say its easy, there is communication and other skills required. But Eve is hard. If its getting harder, well.... even better.
I am predicting, that Corporations are going to need more pilots and not only SP-heavy scanning alts.... And that, i believe, is a good thing for the health of a game.

Tactik for cloaky warpin: let the covops (fitted hyperspacial etc) warp to 10 of his target. as soon as he lands he calls that out and the fleet warps to 0km onto him. at that time, the enemy might be farther away, so bonus if they have speed. but then again, a wise interceptor pilot could help to predict that movement. Well, maybe even assault frigates will be useful again!

Let the paying noobs have a shiny day in a fleet too!!! (... and if he f*s up, its just a little frigate wreck more. not the end of the day.)


Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1383 - 2015-06-16 14:26:10 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole.




Yet off grid boosters are a thing. We also have cyno ships, supercarrier pilots who spend 90% of their time sitting in the staging system waiting for a call that never comes and haulers who carry around POS and other structures. Being a scout is a lot more entertaining that all of those activities.

Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.


No probes means you dont have as much freedom to move around the battle which means you have less options.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1384 - 2015-06-16 14:36:13 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
Ben Ishikela wrote:
I cannot believe that the rather intelligent playerbase of EvE is so blind. Did all the F1-monkeyery make you stupid all of a sudden?
You, as many others, seem to miss the point.

Providing warpins is a very fun activity. Its get the heart pumping. Everyone is relying on you. Here you can show off your skills and make the warpin even closer and better (ofc at more risk).
But it is overshadowed by current fleetwarps in combination with probing. Its hardly needed currently.

With the changes, an interceptor or cloaky frigate will be a very valuable asset.
For a Pilot to help his fleet, he does not need to be able to sit in a MNI or Ishtar with perfect rekking-skills. Then he'll need low training time required, only 30mil for a a fitted fast ship and a little experience of manual piloting.
I dont say its easy, there is communication and other skills required. But Eve is hard. If its getting harder, well.... even better.
I am predicting, that Corporations are going to need more pilots and not only SP-heavy scanning alts.... And that, i believe, is a good thing for the health of a game.

Tactik for cloaky warpin: let the covops (fitted hyperspacial etc) warp to 10 of his target. as soon as he lands he calls that out and the fleet warps to 0km onto him. at that time, the enemy might be farther away, so bonus if they have speed. but then again, a wise interceptor pilot could help to predict that movement. Well, maybe even assault frigates will be useful again!

Let the paying noobs have a shiny day in a fleet too!!! (... and if he f*s up, its just a little frigate wreck more. not the end of the day.)


Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.




Everybody want to be in the spotlight and would rather act as a herd of cows to be partially in it than do different roles where they might not show up on KM but still have a bigger impact on a fight.

The issue wiith "I want to be in the action" is that a metric ass ton of people can't understand how those tactical roles have much more impact than a grunt following order like a robot in the ball of DPS ever will. People don't want to do the "thankless" jobs because there are too many retards who won't thank them for doing what is essential. They all take it for granted and think of themself highly because they got their name on 42 KM that night while the dude who delivered those KM on a silver platter to them by providing them a perfect warp in gets nothing.

It's the same reason sooooooooo many people won't fly logi for example. People don't understand that the end result, a KM, is the result of a much longer process than ctrl+click F1. As long as the mentality stays as it is now, support roles will never be "rewarding" to do even if it brings better overall gameplay to the game. Remember when people bitched because drone assist was getting limited? This si the same thing. CCP is asking you do do stuff while you are in fleet and not just a whole 3 command total. Currently, it's whatever you want to use for anchoring (keep at range, approach or orbit), ctrl+click on called target and F1 on primary. At most, you might get a "prop mod on" because you MWD can't be kept on forever. Having to do your warp yourself is not entertaining? How "fun" is a message in the middle of the screen telling you "Oh btw, X decided you would warp now".
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1385 - 2015-06-16 14:39:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole.




Yet off grid boosters are a thing. We also have cyno ships, supercarrier pilots who spend 90% of their time sitting in the staging system waiting for a call that never comes and haulers who carry around POS and other structures. Being a scout is a lot more entertaining that all of those activities.

Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.


No probes means you dont have as much freedom to move around the battle which means you have less options.


We fought one of these shiny hole fight last night with Team Pizza, was good. as for moving around, everything was on the hole except for 5 ships orbiting at 50. you are not going to warp to that nor off the hole. being on the hole is a tactic that when you are about to die you go thru the hole. scouts were useless and there were none.

And in W-space, off grid boosters are not common as your fancy nullsec. we primary gank squads and on the occasion get to have a brawl. there were about 30 people total. no of grid boosts. instead they went for a carrier. Also I am yet to see a cyno ship in a wormhole. that is also a nullsec thing.

Im not saying scouts are utterly useless, I am saying that in w-space you get much more of the small group type content that btw is in all parts of EVE, not just w-space. and that scouts often are going home to reship into dps or logi in the case we find ex: 3 ratting gila's. you drop a bookmark close to them and go get a dictor, dps, and logi.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1386 - 2015-06-16 14:46:17 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


We fought one of these shiny hole fight last night with Team Pizza, was good. as for moving around, everything was on the hole except for 5 ships orbiting at 50. you are not going to warp to that nor off the hole. being on the hole is a tactic that when you are about to die you go thru the hole. scouts were useless and there were none.

And in W-space, off grid boosters are not common as your fancy nullsec. we primary gank squads and on the occasion get to have a brawl. there were about 30 people total. no of grid boosts. instead they went for a carrier. Also I am yet to see a cyno ship in a wormhole. that is also a nullsec thing.

Im not saying scouts are utterly useless, I am saying that in w-space you get much more of the small group type content that btw is in all parts of EVE, not just w-space. and that scouts often are going home to reship into dps or logi in the case we find ex: 3 ratting gila's. you drop a bookmark close to them and go get a dictor, dps, and logi.


so in future you leave a cloaked ship at the target and call for help. Seems to me that this change makes very little difference to you in WH.
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1387 - 2015-06-16 14:47:19 UTC
How "fun" is a message in the middle of the screen telling you "Oh btw, X decided you would warp now".[/quote]

How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives?

How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment?

How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1388 - 2015-06-16 14:52:37 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives?


You can still fleet warp as you do now.

Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment?


You dont wait for bookmarks, you wait a few seconds for a scout to ping.
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'?


Already happens, no change here.
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1389 - 2015-06-16 14:54:54 UTC
so in future you leave a cloaked ship at the target and call for help. Seems to me that this change makes very little difference to you in WH.[/quote]

Unlike you and what seems to be most people in eve, I dont have 2 accounts. I have 1 account. I am also a scout. many newbros dont have alt accounts either. so just sitting there all day does nothing. Also please keep in mind that in cases of ratting/gassing there are many things that will decloak you if you get too close. so sometimes the best you will get is 20-40 kilometers. hence why warping to bookmarks is important. you bookmark their gas cloud they are in/ you bookmark their MTU and warp to it when they go to scoop it. many tricks that we use these BM's for because we can't get close.

I also have a job and a life outside EVE, im never going to have a plex'd alt account nor intend to in the future. I see no reason to have an alt account and with this change most people will find them mandatory just for the sake of warp in.
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1390 - 2015-06-16 14:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowforge Dawkins
baltec1 wrote:
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives?


You can still fleet warp as you do now.

Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment?


You dont wait for bookmarks, you wait a few seconds for a scout to ping.


Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:

How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'?


Already happens, no change here.


--as noted earlier it is common practice in w-space to warp to bookmarks. we dont have beacons, stargates, stations like you do

--And if said scout had to reship for a bigger ship so the gank fleet doesn't die

No typically in a wormhole corp we don't have to trade bookmarks at all. The need for them will arise out of the need for them to propagate immediately rather than in 10 minutes. We have corp bookmarks and use them well.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1391 - 2015-06-16 15:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How "fun" is a message in the middle of the screen telling you "Oh btw, X decided you would warp now".


How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives?

How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment?

How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'?


You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...
Dermeisen
#1392 - 2015-06-16 15:35:54 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


Unlike you and what seems to be most people in eve, I dont have 2 accounts. I have 1 account. I am also a scout. many newbros dont have alt accounts either. so just sitting there all day does nothing. Also please keep in mind that in cases of ratting/gassing there are many things that will decloak you if you get too close. so sometimes the best you will get is 20-40 kilometers. hence why warping to bookmarks is important. you bookmark their gas cloud they are in/ you bookmark their MTU and warp to it when they go to scoop it. many tricks that we use these BM's for because we can't get close.

I also have a job and a life outside EVE, im never going to have a plex'd alt account nor intend to in the future. I see no reason to have an alt account and with this change most people will find them mandatory just for the sake of warp in.


You make scouting sound deliciously challenging. You say you have a job and a life outside of Eve. What about kids, do you have kids?

You could alway make some friends, or fly a 'tactical' destroyer, oh so that's why they call it a tactical destroyer doesn't seem so odd now that probing bonus (wheels within wheels).

Or should Eve explicitly accommodate those with an antisocial personality disorder.

Oh dear silly me that's what Eve is for isn't it Oops

"Not the Boreworms!"
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#1393 - 2015-06-16 15:44:32 UTC
You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...[/quote]

And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off.
Dermeisen
#1394 - 2015-06-16 16:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dermeisen
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:


And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off.


I was in a fleet about five years ago, it was being FCed by a guy who is now a Dev, he is one of the devs involved in fozzi sov come to think of it, he was in a cov ops and we were in bombers. We warped to him as he warped away, we got right onto the target at optimal but he could just as easily been on the other side of the fleet and we could have warped to him at range, right into the midst of the fleet.

"Not the Boreworms!"
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1395 - 2015-06-16 16:17:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.


    For clarification (and it may have been clarified already, I admit my eyes started swimming about page 10):

    If every member of the fleet has the bookmark - either they're all a member of the same corporation, or you copy the corp bookmark to your cargo hold, hand it to a member of another corp, and they put it in as a corp bookmark - and repeat this process for every corp in the fleet so that everyone in the fleet is capable of warping to that bookmark - are you still unable to warp the fleet to this?

    I understand the game balance issues you're looking at, and don't mind them at all in the context of battlefield management, but warping to a POS, anomaly, station insta-dock, etc - it seems a bit much to, in the name of increasing fleet member participation in actual activities, throw up more obstacles in the way of getting to the activities.

    To say nothing of 'we have instantaneous superluminal communication across the entire EVE Cluster, but my ship can't transmit coordinates to the other guys 5km away from me even if I were able to read the 3 pairs of numbers off verbally on comms' aspect.

    Just seems a little... silly.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1396 - 2015-06-16 16:26:49 UTC
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    so in future you leave a cloaked ship at the target and call for help. Seems to me that this change makes very little difference to you in WH.


    Unlike you and what seems to be most people in eve, I dont have 2 accounts. I have 1 account. I am also a scout. many newbros dont have alt accounts either. so just sitting there all day does nothing. Also please keep in mind that in cases of ratting/gassing there are many things that will decloak you if you get too close. so sometimes the best you will get is 20-40 kilometers. hence why warping to bookmarks is important. you bookmark their gas cloud they are in/ you bookmark their MTU and warp to it when they go to scoop it. many tricks that we use these BM's for because we can't get close.

    I also have a job and a life outside EVE, im never going to have a plex'd alt account nor intend to in the future. I see no reason to have an alt account and with this change most people will find them mandatory just for the sake of warp in.[/quote]

    I have one pvp account, I work 60-80 hours a week, I enjoy BBQs and going down the local as much as the next bloke and I have never plexed an account. None of these are valid excuses.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #1397 - 2015-06-16 16:28:12 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    I have one pvp account, I work 60-80 hours a week, I enjoy BBQs and going down the local as much as the next bloke and I have never plexed an account. None of these are valid excuses.


    To be fair, man, you also scout in a Megathron fitted out to move like a frippin' Harpy. God, I love your fits.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1398 - 2015-06-16 16:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...

    And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off.


    If only there was a cloaky ship with bonused longpoints....
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1399 - 2015-06-16 16:41:00 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...


    And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off.


    If only there was a cloaky ship with bonused longpoints....[/quote]

    There ar a zulution for every problems it seems...
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1400 - 2015-06-16 16:52:41 UTC
    Arrendis wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hopelesshobo wrote:
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

    As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.


    For clarification (and it may have been clarified already, I admit my eyes started swimming about page 10):

    If every member of the fleet has the bookmark - either they're all a member of the same corporation, or you copy the corp bookmark to your cargo hold, hand it to a member of another corp, and they put it in as a corp bookmark - and repeat this process for every corp in the fleet so that everyone in the fleet is capable of warping to that bookmark - are you still unable to warp the fleet to this?

    I understand the game balance issues you're looking at, and don't mind them at all in the context of battlefield management, but warping to a POS, anomaly, station insta-dock, etc - it seems a bit much to, in the name of increasing fleet member participation in actual activities, throw up more obstacles in the way of getting to the activities.

    To say nothing of 'we have instantaneous superluminal communication across the entire EVE Cluster, but my ship can't transmit coordinates to the other guys 5km away from me even if I were able to read the 3 pairs of numbers off verbally on comms' aspect.

    Just seems a little... silly.


    That is correct.

    If it's not an anom, a player or on the overview; fleet warp is going nowhere.