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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

First post First post First post
Author
Makkari Kock
Tensenn Industries
#161 - 2015-06-12 00:04:19 UTC
Angelicous Prada wrote:
Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.


You really do mistake clicking scan for skill. No one will want that role, they want in on them killmails instead of doing a task your 5-year old son could do.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#162 - 2015-06-12 00:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.

Yaay!!!!

Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-06-12 00:05:34 UTC
I'm tentatively in favor of this change.
Scott Ormands
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#164 - 2015-06-12 00:05:55 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Scott Ormands wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll


+1

I can no longer warp my entire fleet to the hole and expect them to land in a cohesive group, first my T3's land and get primaried then a minute later my Bhaals land and then 2 minutes later my triage lands by that time we are all dead. And that's assuming all of us have the BM which can take quite a long time to happen. CCP i am adamantly against this change. Please reconsider.


1. warp scout in at range X.
2. fleet warp to scout.
3. profit...?


There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#165 - 2015-06-12 00:07:53 UTC
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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2015-06-12 00:08:12 UTC
Angelicous Prada wrote:
Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.





THIS is a problem that needs to be looked at, being able to warp a fleet to a previously bookmarked location is not. It's in your ships nav computer, why can't you share that nav data with your fleet warp? Strategic bookmarks are a huge aspect of Eve combat..... Otherwise what's the actual advantage of home field advantage or going in and scouting/preparing a site for combat?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#167 - 2015-06-12 00:08:51 UTC
Scott Ormands wrote:
There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts.


They are called other players doing that role.
Tim Nering
R3d Fire
#168 - 2015-06-12 00:09:01 UTC
fleet warps arent harming anything. does life have to get harder?

as someone who multi boxxes.......UGH.

Stop Caring Start Fragging! Join R3D Fire Today!

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#169 - 2015-06-12 00:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Or you can just cut 99% of the bull out of it and restrict all bookmark and probing fleet warps to just the Squad Commander.

Want to warp the fleet, the squad commander in charge of the 10 people can do it. The wing commander and the fleet commander cannot warp the group in whole.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into.

You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a fc.

Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role (vs just being a booster).


I like Phoenix's idea. It gives Squad Commanders more ability to be functional in a fleet, rather than just having enough Leadership skills to pass along boosts.

This would be similar to the Drone Assist change, where the number of drones was limited to 50. Setting your assists to specific members in fleet (like squad commanders), and having more of those members act as triggers gave more hierarchy and involvement in fleet combat.
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#170 - 2015-06-12 00:10:34 UTC
AAR; Venture kill- yes I know who cares, but the process on this I find important, Because without the fleet warp, If this was a guy in a Relic/data site, he would have been done and gone by the time bookmarks popped. and as for the gas, gas clouds decloak you. so getting a warp in to a person can be very difficult. as this tale shall show.

So after hopping on and seeing our scanned down Chain, I decided to jump into my prospect, time to get that shiny new toy after getting some gas to sell. Before leaving I check the Holes I will be huffing in... Regular hole, not a wolf-rayet so no sig tanking. I dump the tank equip and dual scram, toss on some stabilizers and microwarp drive. Off I go into the C5 static, and on down the chain, spamming D-scan. Arriving in the C2 I hit D-scan. Ventue.... POS.... same stuff as last time. bleh no fight this time. reduce D-scan to 10AU... Venture, sun, POS... Reduce to 5AU... Sun, Venture, nothing.... he's out gassing? perfect time to kill him and take the gas. what gas sites we got? gotta be quick on this- Barren and Ordinary... 1 venture. He is ninja'ing the barren go figure. I warp to the barren-sleepers? missed him? no he is in the other. ah he cleared it.... but that gas is worth way less than C-50? meh kill him anyways the guys need some content. So off I warp to the ord... He is sitting still in the center of the C-72. that's my baiting spot, but he is sitting still, not aligned, on the center of the gas cloud..... don't think its bait... take the bait hope for a big fight? do it.

So I call in the guys and they bring a Jackdaw with dual scram and a few other ships. Becuase he is in the center of the cloud I cannot provide warp-in as I will be de-cloaked and he will see me and run off. can't warp to old sig bookmark as it is 43 KM away. So I click his ship and hit "look at ship", then look around seeing the gas cloud mark is 1 KM away. I bookmark our warp-in point. we don't have fleet warp. well, the guys on home computers got the bookmarks to propagate very quickly, but the 2 on laptops... we tried a few things. My personal favorite for fixing this is what I call Forcing the BM's= Hit "add location" make a bookmark, then delete it. This often causes the bookmarks to propagate, except laptops. then you are not so fortunate, sorry sabre guy. Rather than fleet warping we wait for bookmarks. this guy can leave anytime... so glad I'm not in a Relic site doing this. Then the warp in, scram the venture, kill it. pod got away, fine we got the ship. and his gas=BONUS.

So how is this bad at relic/data sites? cloaked ships don't move fast, cans are often 15-30 KM apart sometimes 50 KM apart. we bookmark the next can he will hit as we are.... 40KM away and target is using a micro warp drive to get there. fleet warp to this location allows a drop on target where as waiting on bookmarks he will be long gone. And I've scrammed a Stratios while flying an Astero... it doesn't go very well for the tackle.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#171 - 2015-06-12 00:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Fleets that have motivated and trusted probers will do a lot better than fleets that have the FC trying to do everything.


The reason FCs multibox is because that's what works, they don't do it for their health. If some other arrangement worked, it would already be happening.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#172 - 2015-06-12 00:11:26 UTC
I like the change, one man FC shows where getting too much. Now to rework combat scanning to something that requires a bit more skill to keep things interesting for the person who has the job to scan down the enemy and provide warpins... even my badly skilled alt was able to combat scan a solo frigate with ease using the default probe formation and sister combat probes.

Baddest poster ever

Ubeleins
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#173 - 2015-06-12 00:11:33 UTC
Villa Deaver wrote:

This won't actually change anything, at least with regard to bomber fleets. Waffles and CFC and the rest will just invest the suddenly-necessary time into copying 10 bookmarks at a time and trading them to everyone in their fleets, because they play the game in a goal-oriented way no matter the cost. More casual and less organized bomber fleets, who aren't willing to invest so much time into un-fun, will be the ones who suffer.


Hanging out decloaked & trading bookmarks in space = getting probed down and killed (depending on the size of the system of course, in a really large system you could probably get away with doing something this stupid.)

As I (and many others) have already pointed out, the FC simply warps his/her probing alt into range, then fleet warps the fleet to his/her alt. All this will do is put their prober at slightly more risk of being decloaked & killed, and it will slightly delay how fast the line members get to land on grid. So I guess this will change average line member's gameplay experience... slightly... they'll be sitting there doing nothing for a few more seconds (or minutes if max tidi) before taking the fleet warp. Mission accomplished?

P.S. Speaking of breaking things that are working fine, can we un-break probes with this change finally? Before Odyssey when you launched probes and opened your map, your probes were at least where you launched them. Ever since Odyssey when you open the map they usually start at the sun, but randomly they'll be off in the middle of nowhere deadspace, but never where they actually are in space (well, I suppose if you warped to the sun before launching them, then they would at least have a chance to start off on the map where they are in space, if it's not one of those random deadspace spawns, but that's besides the point.) I want to be able to jump through a gate, launch combat probes, hit scan, and get results from where I launched them. Having to find them on the map, and move them back to where they actually are in space doesn't make any sense (I can see them on grid, they're right next to me ffs!) And it used to work just fine. It was also really nice for wormhole probing, being able to near instantly ping & eliminate your in-bound sig right after you jump in. And the reason I bring this up in this thread, is that it directly relates to combat probing / fleet warping. If the point of breaking probes in Odyssey was to slow down fleet movement while the FC (or prober) plays "let's find where the map put my probes this time" (which I think is just silly, non-immersive, & counter intuitive) would the change of having to warp his/her prober alt in first be enough of a delay that we could revert the broken probe behavior at least?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#174 - 2015-06-12 00:11:47 UTC
Could we look into more ships getting fitting bonuses for probe launchers, or reducing the needs altogether? The smaller the fleet gets the more important every member becomes, and either switching a man (or two) out for probers or gimping fits so they can fit the launchers, becomes a bigger issue. It still definitley falls within the more people involvement idea, but less of a cost at doing so.
Chase Hakoke
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2015-06-12 00:14:31 UTC
How to fix eve in 4 simple steps (don't do this fleet warp change):

  • Nerf Bomb Damage to larger ships like BCs and BSs
  • Remove jump range nerf OR remove fatigue (not both).
  • Increase starting SP so new pilots can have fun non day 1.
  • Make Sov actually valuable to an alliance with income that comes from things other than moons


BearBearBearBearBearBearBearBearBearBearBear
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#176 - 2015-06-12 00:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohh Yeah
you know im usually the first to make fun of people for being butthurt and I am having a good time watching people be butthurt

BUT

CCP if you keep "fixing" things in a way that isn't fun then even if you are making a more mechanically/conceptually sound game people will play it less because it's not fun

this issue doesn't affect me because I mostly fly solo but I can see how what you're trying to do technically works but it's just not fun for a lot of people and having a fun game is important
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2015-06-12 00:15:36 UTC
The probe bonus to Tactical Destroyers that always seemed out of place finally makes sense.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#178 - 2015-06-12 00:16:12 UTC
Hey remember the last time you tried to "fix" bombers and proposed a change to break all cloaky gameplay entirely which had to be abandoned? If bombers are so broken that you need to break other things to fix them, remove bomb launchers. Entirely.
Jeremiah Cole
Dark Matter.
#179 - 2015-06-12 00:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Cole
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.

I fail to see how power projection through WH space needs to be reduced at all. When you take into consideration the fact that wormholes aren't always going to go where you want and that due to mass constraints you can't just warp six dreads to a hole and jump someone, our ability to project power is already hindered in comparison to that of other capital weilding k-space entities.

Our only advantage is being able to take a capital from one region in New Eden and move it across space with only a fraction of the time and fatigue, and even then we are (once again) constrained my wormhole mass. There are A LOT of wormholes that can only be used by certain sizes of ship, and depending on the mass, only a few can move through before it collapses. Before engaging we have to stop and consider what we're willing to commit to a fight because there's only so much we can. We have to take into consideration the locals and their ability to project defensive capitals and fleets, and if that's worth the risk.

Null sec entities using wormholes to move around? Imagine that, wormholes actually getting used in a way they're meant to. Null sec entities can also use wormholes to move capitals around, but even then they can bring (at most) 3 capitals through a wormhole before it closes. And no, supers can't fit.

As far as subcapital fleets go, you (once again), have to be worried about the mass you'll be using to traverse wormholes with whatever fleet you have. A fleet of 20-50 pilots traversing wormholes can significantly affect the mass of the wormhole, so when in a fleet you're limited in what you can bring and how much of what you can bring. I can't tell you how many times we've had to tell people to actually STAY HOME instead of come out and PVP with us because a wormhole went Critical when we could have benefited from their presence in fleet.

Did I mention polarity, which prevents pilots from crashing back to a wormhole constantly in an effort to survive a gate camp? You don't have that with gates.

There is already a severe lack of content in wormhole space, and this change only works to drive out smaller entities and those looking to establish a foothold in W-Space.
Krops Vont
#180 - 2015-06-12 00:19:02 UTC
Please run with this idea. No one liked wormhole changes but they came and came hard. W-space is still teaming with life.

EVE always needs change no matter how much players grog about it. Smile

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