Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Right now the "scout" is the FC ship that everyone is anchored on.

Because nobody ever did that already. The fix is because certain people don't like it to be scanned out and warped at. The fleet participation nonsense is just made up as a selling point.

Everyone undocks from station, warp to insta undock, fleet warp to scanner at target, gank as normal.

For a proper fleet of -10, who does more than be afk in station most of the time, this change is game breaking. You do not seem to have understanding of that, which is fine, but stop assuming you know better when you clearly don't.

I was -10 for 6 years (2009-2015) and CEO of a smallscale pirate corporation for several years and I don't agree with you.

Especially -10s and WH people are skilled enough to adapt quickly and benefit from their higher overall fleet movement and independent member activity compared to fleets of larger 0.0 groups who greatly rely on the FC and his commands.

This change will give smaller groups of skilled players an edge over large pulks of F1 drones and that alone makes it a good change. That it will lead to more important scout-roles even in larger fleets, offering people with low SP but high softskills jobs they can excel in instead of fitting meta-guns to a level III skilled BS hull just to add "more dps" to the fleet.

Cool, then, this "change" doesn't actually change anything. So, what's the objection? 60+ pages of despair and sadness, for what?



If you are arguing that blowing people up is important, then HOW people blow eachother up is also important.
You seem to think that people should blow eachother up by magically appearing on-grid, in-force, in proximity, with very little warning, and asymmetrically striking their target.
I think people should blow eachother up by conducting a methodical, observable, and disruptable search and approach and engaging in relatively symmetrical combat with their target.

Your way is more realistic, but as you say: "We're playing a science fiction game". Whack-a-Mole with bazookas is fun, but maybe we could try it with just shotguns.

1. If you think there is only one reason for the change and that every other affect is "collateral damage", that might be why you don't understand or accept it.

2. FC's are not "forced" to do anything. They don't even have to log in. If FCing is too hard for them after this change, then maybe they were not officer material to begin with. Not everyone is cut out to be a leader. It sounds like a lot of the objection to this change is from people who just don't want to accept that cold, harsh reality.

3. PVE'ers, by definition, adapt to their environment. They overcome the challenges their environment imposes on them. If they can't do that, maybe they should go do something easier, like ganking noobs in Uitra.

4. Is it supposed to do something to bombers? Bomber pilots are supposed to be elite operators capable of complex, cooperative behavior. The harder EVE gets, the GREATER the advantage to such players.

5. This does nothing to small gangs. Small gang pilots tend to fall into one of two categories: noobs and elites. Or, in other words, people who are learning how to play the game and people who are good at playing the game. The former were already going to adapt, else how would they be able to play the game at all? The latter are already proven to be capable of adaptation. It's how they got good at the game.
Besides that, I've never been in a small gang that blind-fleet warped to a probe signature, not in high sec, not in low sec, not in null, and not in a wormhole. We ALWAYS sent in a scout.

Whether you think scouting is a glory-less or frustrating job depends on your playstyle. In the non-PVE fleets I've flown in, the scout(s) were usually the better players. Unfortunately, it takes a competent FC to understand their value and employ them effectively, and it takes a competent operator to scout effectively in a hostile environment. One or both of those are lacking in many fleets, but a scout is "the tip of the spear". That's a fun job for some people, for some playstyles.

6. In the wormhole operations I've been involved in, you manage your own bookmarks. Yes, sometimes you can grab/use a corp bookmark or a friend's bookmark, but generally, you didn't stand around twiddling your thumbs while others are doing the work of securing the hole, gathering intel, scanning down signatures, fighting for their lives, etc. And, this is not just so you don't get lost; it's also in case someone else (person_B) gets lost, the closest person or the person in a small ship (person_A) can be tasked to go back and provide a warp-in without one of his responsible, boomark-managing teammates (person_C) having to hold his hand and guide him to the wormhole that he couldn't be arsed to bookmark himself when he came through.
If having to wait an extra 20 seconds for your scout to say "GO!" makes it impossible for you to play in wormholes, you should GTFO of wormholes.

7. [Non-corp] group leaders can share bookmarks with eachother. Then, they can each share bookmarks with their groups. A lazy FC could also just not share bookmarks and just warp ahead of his fleet, who could then warp to him. Then, the person with the bookmarks would only have to share them with the FC . . . wait, I think that was redundant.

8. That is called a "problem". Some types of people are good at figuring out solutions to "problems". When those people are empowered to give other people "commands", they are generally referred to as "commander", not to be confused with the specific rank of Commander which is used in many militaries and other organizations with such hierarchical social structures. When a "commander" is empowered to give orders to a fleet and its members, he/she is called a "fleet commander", generally abbreviated as "FC" in EVE Online.

9. I am seeing a theme and it is this: You are not fleet command material. :-(

No, they lack the rest of the metagame skillset to be successful here. How to navigate camps, how WHs work, the hacking skills themselves, the inability to defend themselves, training paths off doctrine paths not to mention the up and down nature of the profession.

It's a fine role for an alt to be sure, but as a newbro? No, it's the road to stagnation, frustration.

Newbros thrive, in my experience, in immediately training into fast tackle: It's easy to train into, it's skills useful in all ships, FCs fall over themselves for fast tackle and it's interactive and obviously useful to the fleetmates for the newbro to observe with his own eyes. Scouting is much less....tangible.

Not to mention a GOOD scout needs years of experience under their belt. The very best scouts have almost a 6th sense for the environment and that can't be trained, just takes time. At best a new scout will scare away the enemy, at worst they'll just get you killed.

What I find funniest about this is that I have been the scout for numerous coalition fleets in which baltec1 has participated. Even more amazing, I was not the FC! I was, however, bored to tears burning perches for Laz (among others) and then acting as a rolling safe spot. But hey, that's quality game play!