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Do not train to fly battleships
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Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#341 - 2015-06-14 00:18:05 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:

Show me a single ship that will reliably alpha enemy logistics off the field. (One shot - not 2 or 3 - if there's one logi, there will be more - so multiple shots can be repped through.)
Need a Maelstrom or Tempest for this. Mega? I dunno - I haven't done much with those.

Show me a ship that can neut out an enemy triage carrier while being focused by an enemy fleet? Need a Geddon for this, and it contributes dps or ewar drones to the fight as well.

Then there are spider tank domis... find me three ships that will tank and dps as well as those for equitable cost and skillpoint investment.

You need a T1 Battleship to AoE jam a fleet and survive. Scorpion. The alternative is many cruisers or frigs.

You need Battleships to pipe-bomb a fleet. (Unless you are going to dump caps/supers to pipe-bomb - which is far more skill / cost intensive)

You need a battleship to hit at extreme (200-250km - Entosis sov, this may become a thing) range. Rokh etc.

Then, training Battleships gets you Pirate battleships, Marauders, Blops, Faction Battleships, and leads nicely into dreads. Training cruisers won't get you those - so you need to train BS.

Battleships wouldn't be the first thing I advise a newbro to train for - they are better off training for closer goals, and work their way towards the bigger things. I would definitely have battleships on the list of things to work to - ESPECIALLY if you are planning on Null / Wormhole life.

If you are in a position where moving isn't a big option (Entosis sov? No remote reps, so that buffer is gonna be important) Battleships will hold a field far easier than frigs, cruisers, dessies or BCs. And they'll do it cheaper.

If you have the guys - anything will work. If you have a limit on the number of guys you can bring, but need to fill many roles on the fly - Battleships have the utility to do this.

I'm not terribly experienced in pvp - but these are the things I would say Battleships are needed for.

Having said that, I would like to see Battleships warp a little faster - but rigs / macharial / lowslots / implants can fix this.




These?

All those thingscould be done by a T2/T3 cruiser/BC/. Besides, that requires a fleet for half of those things, and it doesn't matter what you bring to the blob.


lol - ok. I got baited - this thread is still cool though - learnt lots about Battleships' capabilities that I didn't know before - gonna try some out Big smile
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#342 - 2015-06-14 00:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:
At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.


Ashimmu and 1-2 Svipuls. You're welcome. Also works against marauders solo farming c4s.


Is that really all it takes to down a Paladin? If so then the passive Rattlers are far and away the best ships for soloing C4's.

But we aren't talking about t2 battleships are we?


Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.

Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.

I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.

You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#343 - 2015-06-14 00:33:45 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
[

Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.

Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.

I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.

You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#344 - 2015-06-14 01:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
[

Who cares what YOU want to talk about. I'm using your thread to gain a wealth of knowledge about ships/tactics that I don't know about.

Bottom line is you regret that you trained BS and wished that you trained for T2/T3 cruisers, sucks to be you. You should have started playing this game with 3 or 4 alts just in case you make a mistake a year later.

I have many alts training for Paladins, Domis/Rattlers, Sleipnir/Abso, and this main here flies T3C's and down.

You started with just one char, regret it immensely wishing you had trained for a T2/T3C's and now can do nothing but whine about how terrible the ship you regret training for a year is to help you get over it. P-I-T-I-F-U-L-L

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.


Nor should never ending trolling should be tolerated. When a person trolls as long as you do, personal attacks will become UNAVOIDABLE.. And my statement wasn't a personal attack, it was my opinion on your constant whining and whimpering on not being able to fly a T2/T3C because you trained for the BS which you are agonizing over atm.

Whining in the threads about how terrible BSs are (they are not) isn't a wise way of relieving your pain/jealousy of not being able to fly the T2/T3C's, the only way is for you to either start cross training into the T2/T3C class, start up another char that specializes in T2/T3C's, or go to eve bazaar and buy you a char that can fly them (assuming you got the iskies). BUT even then, If you fit them terribly like you fit your BSs, then you'll get butchered in them as well.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#345 - 2015-06-14 01:30:25 UTC
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2015-06-14 01:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
I suspect one of the main reasons battleships have seemed irrelevant of late is the multi-year reign of the Ishtar as the king of the battlefield, with its ability to project battleship DPS at battleship engagement range whilst being utterly unconcerned with such nonsense as transversal, thus employing a devastating speed tank on top of a still outsized buffer, and bringing to the table a mobility which rendered the battleship class unable to compete.

I think we'll see more BS slugging matches as the sentry Ishtar becomes less of a dominant force at 100k+ range.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#347 - 2015-06-14 03:50:26 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.


And we used video evidence that shows battleships ripping apart your t2/t3 cruisers with ease.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#348 - 2015-06-14 05:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.


If you are so knowledgeable about game mechanics, why on earth was your ship fit like this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=46920196

or this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851


And how could you lose a ship in .5 space fit like this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851


Because a pro mechanics guy like yourself would never undock with any of those.

Is it possible you made a mistake?
Is it possible you don't have a clue how to fit a battleship?
Is it possible that you aren't even skilled enough to properly fit a T1 battleship?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2015-06-14 05:55:06 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.


If you are so knowledgeable about game mechanics, why on earth was your ship fit like this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=46920196

or this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851


And how could you lose a ship in .5 space fit like this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851


Because a pro mechanics guy like yourself would never undock with any of those.

Is it possible you made a mistake?
Is it possible you don't have a clue how to fit a battleship?
Is it possible that you aren't even skilled enough to properly fit a T1 battleship?

The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#350 - 2015-06-14 06:03:48 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.



NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice.
You are not qualified to give that advice.
It is bad advice.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#351 - 2015-06-14 06:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Blackfeathers wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:
At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.


hmm 3 tornados?

Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut.
I would not be quick but it would work.


I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever.

Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.

Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess?

In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them.



Not to be a turd about it, but having some experience doing horrid things to battleships with an ishkur... the Hype has no drones after about 2 minutes tops. You kill them first as a frigate... always. After that, unless the beastie is more than cap stable that small neut combined with liberal application of Void WILL crack that nut open. As Ralph stated though, it's not a fast process. It's quite literally a death of a thousand cuts. If the BS has any buddies within ten jumps they can usually rescue them from this however. The Domi is actually much scarier to a frigate as those things can be a literal hive of frig killing drones.

I'm not arguing the validity of battleships though. The evidence of their effectiveness and versatility that's been presented in this thread is overwhelming. Most of them are as cheap as a T2 cruiser, cheaper in some cases.

Edit: and MUCH cheaper than a well fit T3.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#352 - 2015-06-14 06:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Let's face it. T1 battleships are not superior in any way with all the T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates running around.

Again, that's just your own opinion after the few years you have been playing. You don't have the experience enough yet to say if the Battleships are any sub-par to T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates.

Battleships are superior in many ways over T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers, and frigates. It just depends on what you are going to do.

Aza Ebanu wrote:
The saddest part: a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms them. Now blobs of medium sized hulls are the most effective, as numerous killboards demonstrate. I invite all naysayers to just look at the killboards. How many people are getting kills with battleships, vs cruiser gangs? There is a reason for this.

I can guarantee you that a fleet of 4 Megathrons is going to massacre a Cruiser fleet of 15 peoples if the Megathrons have fitted their ships for that type of fights.

Lets twist you argument a little. You say that a blob of smaller ships easily overwhelms a battleship?

What if you try to bring a single cruiser to a single battleship to see how that goes instead to make the comparsion fair?

I'm sure you you know that your comparsion doesn't work, because if i decide to bring a blob of 15 Battleships and 5 Logistics, you need at least 50 cruisers to pose any danger to us. So you need 50 peoples while we need 20. And that is not a good way to determine if a Battleships is worser than the smaller ships.

Try 10 Battleships vs 10 Cruisers without any logistics on both sides instead. Then lets see who will win here. Yes, the Battleship fleet will massacre the Cruiser fleet. So, you get the point. So the Battleships here are superior in this fight.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2015-06-14 06:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.



NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice.
You are not qualified to give that advice.
It is bad advice.

How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#354 - 2015-06-14 06:14:31 UTC
Blackfeathers wrote:

Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.


I killed a triple rep myrm on my own while solo roaming in a nado. Yes; I know that solo tornados are laughably dumb, I have about 20 tornado fail mails to prove it.

but if the stars and the moon align and you so happen to come across an active tanked anything while in a 1400 fit tornado, good time will ensue.

3 tornados will hit for max damage against anything with a BS sig, fired at once they could delete 36000 EHP, without buffer mods you're bleeding into the next layer every salvo and hype will never catch a nado. kill the drones obviously so all the hype has to fight back with in its blaster which can project well past heated long point range, but you could just juggle points and pull range.

also I've taken out a tripple reped hype with a gang of 4 players, 2 of which were wasted and sleep deprived. in caracals....... with venture tackle.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#355 - 2015-06-14 06:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Aza Ebanu wrote:
How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.

Your killboard says you have no experience in flying battleships while i do. So don't lie about that everyones killboard says it, because mine don't.

And with my experience in flying battleships all since 2005, i can pretty much say that you are completely wrong about battleships here.

You have got evidences after evidences that we are right about Battleships. How many more evidences do you need before you're happy?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#356 - 2015-06-14 06:43:10 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.



NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice.
You are not qualified to give that advice.
It is bad advice.

How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.



I know because of those fits. You could have 5 characters for all I know. You might be a great miner, or a great trader, or the best freighter pilot in all of EVE. But those fits show that you have zero knowledge of BS fitting and next to nothing of PvP experience.
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#357 - 2015-06-14 06:53:52 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:
At 500mil isk total, show me a solo or even 2-3man gang that can take a dual or tri-rep Hyperion.


hmm 3 tornados?

Or one Sig tanked ishkur with a small neut.
I would not be quick but it would work.


I don't think a small neut would be enough to turn off enough reps to make the Ishkur's dps matter. I suspect the Hype's drones or a lucky hit would finish the fight, or they'd be sitting around forever.

Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.

Ashimuu + svipuls *Shrug* I guess?

In any case - I think Battleships are a viable option for training. They offer a number of things to anyone who trains them.



Not to be a turd about it, but having some experience doing horrid things to battleships with an ishkur... the Hype has no drones after about 2 minutes tops. You kill them first as a frigate... always. After that, unless the beastie is more than cap stable that small neut combined with liberal application of Void WILL crack that nut open. As Ralph stated though, it's not a fast process. It's quite literally a death of a thousand cuts. If the BS has any buddies within ten jumps they can usually rescue them from this however. The Domi is actually much scarier to a frigate as those things can be a literal hive of frig killing drones.

I'm not arguing the validity of battleships though. The evidence of their effectiveness and versatility that's been presented in this thread is overwhelming. Most of them are as cheap as a T2 cruiser, cheaper in some cases.

Edit: and MUCH cheaper than a well fit T3.


Well, Today I learned! Straight
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2015-06-14 08:38:39 UTC
This thread deserves an oscar.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#359 - 2015-06-14 08:52:43 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Blackfeathers wrote:

Nados - They don't have high enough sustained dps to kill BS's unless there are more of them.


I killed a triple rep myrm on my own while solo roaming in a nado. Yes; I know that solo tornados are laughably dumb, I have about 20 tornado fail mails to prove it.

but if the stars and the moon align and you so happen to come across an active tanked anything while in a 1400 fit tornado, good time will ensue.

3 tornados will hit for max damage against anything with a BS sig, fired at once they could delete 36000 EHP, without buffer mods you're bleeding into the next layer every salvo and hype will never catch a nado. kill the drones obviously so all the hype has to fight back with in its blaster which can project well past heated long point range, but you could just juggle points and pull range.

also I've taken out a tripple reped hype with a gang of 4 players, 2 of which were wasted and sleep deprived. in caracals....... with venture tackle.


at which point you just... warp off Shocked

or in point range a hype does damage with null to a tornado. then again the nados might win the damage race. then again arty doesn't have the best tracking. A MJD would also be a rather strong move.

hype has pretty bad cap regen so the ishkur will probably wear it down eventually. Those things are very resilient, plus their resists are pretty awesome. that said scale it up a bit, and well, I don't think it looks good for the ishkurs. eventually one or more of the hypes is going to get good transversial, and/or have neuts to shut down the ishkur.

whoever said ashimmu is probably right, but I would have said curse. don't know if I like being in unmodified medium neut range of a hype in a cruiser.

Not sure a hypothetical 1vN is even useful. Just look at burner missions, can come up with a gimicky setup that can beat just about anything. and then there is the does it scale test.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#360 - 2015-06-14 08:55:22 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.


I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly larger ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from the OP. I use killboard info to back up my point.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter