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Carnyx release - General feedback

First post First post First post
Author
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#1081 - 2015-06-04 18:01:08 UTC
CCP Surge wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
i want the old icons back,

im afraid since the majority of the community is saying the same. ccp has put on the wall module and are no longer paying any attention to this thread.


That's not true. We're definitely still keeping tabs on this thread and assessing the situation. Just don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from us so soon. For now keep the feedback coming, keep it constructive. Thanks

Then what do you have say for all the feedback that was given in the very thread YOU created while it was on SiSi, CCP Surge??? Most of the criticism so far was listed MANY times in that thread, how would reacting to that be a 'knee-jerk'? You've had the feedback for weeks now (close to a month)....

This whole thing smells of a very arrogant Dev team that is too prideful to take good constructive criticism. I called it the moment you guys stopped responding to the SiSi thread and said you would push this to TQ and never look back. Please prove me wrong.

back on topic:
Yep...icons are still just has hard to tell player ships from neutral NPC's....and there is still no clear progression of ship sizes...pretty much everything that you've already been told, but have buried your head in the sand because it doesn't fit within your idea of special and pretty.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1082 - 2015-06-04 18:01:15 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
What do you care you don't even play this game.


If I didn't care I wouldn't post. Try harder.


The name of your corpo : Drinking in station...
For that indeed i bet the new icons are perfectly fine.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1083 - 2015-06-04 18:03:39 UTC
Tao Dolcino wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
What do you care you don't even play this game.


If I didn't care I wouldn't post. Try harder.


The name of your corpo : Drinking in station...
For that indeed i bet the new icons are perfectly fine.

Not if you drink too much and accidentally undock.
Benito Arias
Angry Mustellid
#1084 - 2015-06-04 18:08:54 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
So in other words, your test was to jump in to the worst case immediately and then complain that it was bad.

OK.

I've eased myself in, because that's the sensible thing to do when confronted with a new icon set.


Yes, I did, because that's what testing is about, and that's what my way of EVE is about. And I found out that the new icons do not work as intended.

Quote:
OK, so have one icon for "player ship" and be done with it? For me, that would be better than the old way, because as I mentioned, I couldn't rely on the old player ship icons at all.


Quite, one shape for player ships, varying by size and maybe sizable details in rare cases. Because 'Player ship' is the crucial bit. Whether is it a Frigate or a Battleship, is secondary, and it is never enough by itself, anyway, without the exact Class name (Scorpion or NavPoc? Stiletto or Tormentor?) and other stuff, which you look for in the overview.

Steijn
Quay Industries
#1085 - 2015-06-04 18:09:32 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Steijn wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.


it doesnt matter what its over, the point is that the game in its current state is unplayable for myself, and for plenty of others judging by this thread.


So, what it boils down to is "I'm used to playing this way and they changed it. Change it back!" right?


not at all. the new icons are not distinguishable, or in basic english, you cant tell what the fck they are. All you should need to do is to have a quick glance and know exactly which is which. With the new icons you cant because too many of them are too similar.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1086 - 2015-06-04 18:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Benito Arias wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

This is a completely subjective assessment. I can see the new icons more clearly than the old ones. I find them significantly less ambiguous. I've looked at the pictures of what people consider confusing and overwhelming and all I see is clarity.

The obvious exception is the 90% scaling problem. That's just flat-out broken, and CCP should have collected and acted on that information before rolling this out.

If this gets rolled back, then I suppose I can go back to not being able to see player ships nearly as well as rats (whose old icons were strong and iconic), mistaking destroyers and cruisers and battlecruisers, and not really seeing cruisers and larger ships at all, because those icons are thin and weak and nearly indistinguishable from the bounding box of the overview column. The game is playable that way--I just ignored the icons and looked at the ship type column--but I was really looking forward to this.


Yes, it's subjective, and it comes from someone who has been enjoying space PvP for 5 years, every other day or so. Have you?

In order to make it, I didn't look at pictures, I warped into a PvP heavy grid on Sisi, where all the things were moving, stopping, disappearing and appearing again. I imagined I was trying to report it in a live fleet on TQ. I was terrified by the amount of different shaped which basically mean the same. 8 shapes for ships, 8 shapes for drones, plus wrecks. Sixteen odd shapes to recognize against two (!) with old brackets, only to make a count of ships and whether they have drones out or not. Where's clarity in that?

So you are saying you had to use the type column in the overview. Well you should have, because the idea that you can put all the tactically relevant information into an icon is silly.



All they need is to make all drones x's again. Then anything on your grid that's pointy is a ship. Bigger pointies are bigger ships. It becomes much more manageable this way.

edit: well, that and the NPC issue.
Jackie Esticato
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1087 - 2015-06-04 18:15:56 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Benito Arias wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

This is a completely subjective assessment. I can see the new icons more clearly than the old ones. I find them significantly less ambiguous. I've looked at the pictures of what people consider confusing and overwhelming and all I see is clarity.

The obvious exception is the 90% scaling problem. That's just flat-out broken, and CCP should have collected and acted on that information before rolling this out.

If this gets rolled back, then I suppose I can go back to not being able to see player ships nearly as well as rats (whose old icons were strong and iconic), mistaking destroyers and cruisers and battlecruisers, and not really seeing cruisers and larger ships at all, because those icons are thin and weak and nearly indistinguishable from the bounding box of the overview column. The game is playable that way--I just ignored the icons and looked at the ship type column--but I was really looking forward to this.


Yes, it's subjective, and it comes from someone who has been enjoying space PvP for 5 years, every other day or so. Have you?

In order to make it, I didn't look at pictures, I warped into a PvP heavy grid on Sisi, where all the things were moving, stopping, disappearing and appearing again. I imagined I was trying to report it in a live fleet on TQ. I was terrified by the amount of different shaped which basically mean the same. 8 shapes for ships, 8 shapes for drones, plus wrecks. Sixteen odd shapes to recognize against two (!) with old brackets, only to make a count of ships and whether they have drones out or not. Where's clarity in that?

So you are saying you had to use the type column in the overview. Well you should have, because the idea that you can put all the tactically relevant information into an icon is silly.



All they need is to make all drones x's again. Then anything on your grid that's pointy is a ship. Bigger pointies are bigger ships. It becomes much more manageable this way.


That's half of it. Turning NPC's upside down would do the rest.

Drones are x's
NPC are trigangles pointed down
Players are triangles pointed up.

That way you could keep or lose all the extra types and details, because it ceases to matter on the whole.
Grubgrafter
Fortis fortuna adiuvat
#1088 - 2015-06-04 18:16:12 UTC
Ooooooh No..... New Icons still here..!!!!

Can CCP you please dump them, as they are useless in high pressure situations, it is actually quicker to identify ship type using the overview type column rather than the ridiculous new icon set... Lol ("Not working as intended" you get it?)

HotBurger
Boere Kavaliers
#1089 - 2015-06-04 18:22:46 UTC
Please change the Planetary Interaction mechanics to pre-carnyx - specifically the fact that before I could just double-click an extractor and it will open the extraction window. Now I have to single-click the extractor, click the extract option and then the extraction window opens.

It's a small think, but when you make the bulk of your ISK through PI it does add a certain level of frustration and makes the process even more tedious than it already is.
Xi-Nu73
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1090 - 2015-06-04 18:28:07 UTC
The new look for the Caracal is amazing! Thanks CCP. Please update the appearance of other ships.
Aongus Rylian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1091 - 2015-06-04 18:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aongus Rylian
After Watching a "Blob" run from system to system taking down the station services of our corp., and forcing us to either run around repairing the services or have none, Two STARK REALITIES were reached.

You have not created a scenario that will allow More and Smaller Corporations to enter Null.... You have not created a situation that will take systems from the "Big Corps" from lack of use. Sure there may be some culling, but over all, the Only thing that I see happening is that you have Perpetuated an Already Large Power Vacuum into a point of Frenzy. Essentially you have created the perfect storm for END GAME. Players will not and do not wish to be "Fire Men" all day. As in, having to be reactive constantly. And the largest Blob Wins.

With in a half hour of seeing this new new mechanic in action, I saw the bleak Death of EVE as we know it. You have created One item more important then all others in the game. The Entosis Link will be the One Item More Important then any others. In order to "Protect" the Entosis Process, You will need a BLOB. Once that realization is reached by eve players...... then it leaves One Scenario....... The Biggest Wins. I Blob your station effectively locking down the inhabitants, I send a smaller blob to begin the flip, and since the station won't be involved it is like poss bashing, without the lengthy process.

In the end, this is a trophy for the Biggest Corporations PERIOD.
The services go down....... While the blob fights...... the station flips.......Reds Enter station.........Buy the Market.........Even if the reds choose to leave..............The Biggest Corp Wins.......... POWER VACUUM COMPLETE.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#1092 - 2015-06-04 18:33:36 UTC
Some back of the envelope stats thus far.

Total posts in both Mosaic: General Feedback and Mosaic:Issues: 523 replies
total posts in Carnyx: Feedback Alone: Over 1000 (that's over 1K in cargo space used in eveSp33k)

Approximate time Mosaic threads were started: April 27 2015
Approximate time Carnyx General Feedback thread was started: June 6 2015

If I were an official and trained statistics number cruncher.... I'd say there's a serious issue somewhere causing some dedicated and determined pushback that is different from Mosaic to Carnyx. And if I were in a managing, supervisory, or corporate level in a business with that level of pushback, I'd want to know why. Along with a solution that would lessen the push to allow more time to get the dry erase boards out for brainstorming a better 'update/revamp' since Eve is no longer the only game in a space theme available in the internet sandbox.

tl;dr! version. CCP sees kneejerk. We're just wanting two options, not one forced by fiat.

I don't want to leave. But I refuse to suffer thru migraines, eyestrain, and frustration to Play a Game. Where each person draws a line is different and personal. I won't sacrifice my physical well being that's already shaky for spare time amusement.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.

Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1093 - 2015-06-04 18:34:14 UTC
HotBurger wrote:
Please change the Planetary Interaction mechanics to pre-carnyx - specifically the fact that before I could just double-click an extractor and it will open the extraction window. Now I have to single-click the extractor, click the extract option and then the extraction window opens.


You have to double click the extractor slower in order to get the extractor to come up. Click, pause, Click. Yes. It is annoying.

Why a change, to the speed, in which you double click something to make it come up was implemented is beyond me.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#1094 - 2015-06-04 18:34:53 UTC
my problem with the new icons is that there are round about 42 million different icons for different things now. before this change i could easily decide if something is a player ship, an npc ship, a structure or what ever. now it's really hard for me because even the player ship icon's don't follow any consistent shema. the jove observation icon could be a ship, a friendly NPC could be a player, a shuttle could be a wreck...

and also there are way to many icons in my opinion. getting a bit more information by just seeing the icon is a good thing, sure. but if there are too many different icons, it leads to confusion.

so i did some thoughts on how this could be better and came up with the icon shema below (yes, i stole dat concept thingy and replaced the icons, i am an evil piwat):

http://i.imgur.com/75xJGq1.png

i think this follows a shema wich all of us are used to, gives more informations than the old icons but not too much. in my optinion this is enough difference for the icons to decide to run or to fight.

i also thought about all the other icons, wich are not ships. and i think we have to ask ourselfes "what is the sense of more and new icons". the answere is "getting more informations than before in a really short amount of time just by looking at the icon". in my opinion, all other icons made enough sense before carnyx and therefore i would prefer to have them back rather than designing some unneseccary new confusion.

PS: i don't think that my icon designs are perfect but i think with all this explanation it should be clear what i tried to do.
Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1095 - 2015-06-04 18:35:52 UTC
No **** the largest blob wins, that''s how it works and will always work, no amount of balancing or "direction" will change that.

Aongus Rylian wrote:

The services go down....... While the blob fights...... the station flips.......Reds Enter station.........Buy the Market.........Even if the reds choose to leave..............The Biggest Corp Wins.......... POWER VACUUM COMPLETE.


I was unaware that it was possible to flip a station in a matter of hours.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#1096 - 2015-06-04 18:38:13 UTC
Aongus Rylian wrote:
After Watching a "Blob" run from system to system taking down the station services of our corp., and forcing us to either run around repairing the services or have none, Two STARK REALITIES were reached.

You have not created a scenario that will allow More and Smaller Corporations to enter Null.... You have not created a situation that will take systems from the "Big Corps" from lack of use. Sure there may be some culling, but over all, the Only thing that I see happening is that you have Perpetuated an Already Large Power Vacuum into a point of Frenzy. Essentially you have created the perfect storm for END GAME. Players will not and do not wish to be "Fire Men" all day. As in, having to be reactive constantly. And the largest Blob Wins.

With in a half hour of seeing this new new mechanic in action, I saw the bleak Death of EVE as we know it. You have created One item more important then all others in the game. The Entosis Link will be the One Item More Important then any others. In order to "Protect" the Entosis Process, You will need a BLOB. Once that realization is reached by eve players...... then it leaves One Scenario....... The Biggest Wins. I Blob your station effectively locking down the inhabitants, I send a smaller blob to begin the flip, and since the station won't be involved it is like poss bashing, without the lengthy process.

In the end, this is a trophy for the Biggest Corporations PERIOD.
The services go down....... While the blob fights...... the station flips.......Reds Enter station.........Buy the Market.........Even if the reds choose to leave..............The Biggest Corp Wins.......... POWER VACUUM COMPLETE.


Is there video of this up somewhere?? I'm wanting to see this, please! Not snarky, not sarcastic, if this is what's going on over more than a few systems in null this will derail my later plans for my still tiny corp.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.

Makkuro Tatsu
Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure
#1097 - 2015-06-04 18:41:21 UTC
The level of juvenile crap in this thread is unbelievable. EVE players on the OS X platform have (and had for years) serious issues like clients freezing or crashing, and here some brainiacs are "threatening" to unsubscribe because they don't like getting used to a modified set of icons? Go ahead, quit playing EVE if you like, and good riddance. Ugh
Steijn
Quay Industries
#1098 - 2015-06-04 18:44:45 UTC
Makkuro Tatsu wrote:
The level of juvenile crap in this thread is unbelievable. EVE players on the OS X platform have (and had for years) serious issues like clients freezing or crashing, and here some brainiacs are "threatening" to unsubscribe because they don't like getting used to a modified set of icons? Go ahead, quit playing EVE if you like, and good riddance. Ugh


and another one that thinks all this is down to something as simple as 'dont like'. Roll
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1099 - 2015-06-04 18:45:15 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
All they need is to make all drones x's again. Then anything on your grid that's pointy is a ship. Bigger pointies are bigger ships. It becomes much more manageable this way.

But make the NPC ships distinguishable by something other than colour. Colour AND something else fine, but not colour alone. Up/down arrows could work, I'd have to see it in-client to know.

In 99% of cases, I do not give a flying scotsman about NPCs. If the representation of NPCs in the space scene conflicts with the clear representation of player vessels, then the UI has been downgraded for my needs. I'll end up hiding them (as normal) and then swearing profusely on the 1% of occasions that I actually care that they exist.

From an aesthetic perspective, I'd prefer the space scene to be beautiful to look at and only ever obscured by pertinent information. So the more complex and messy you make the brackets the more likely I am to hide them just on taste grounds.

I'm now pretty much set on hiding the icons column in the overview, as it is now effectively useless to me and at 90% scaling it makes it look like my monitor is broken. Not something I wish to see ever.

So, I suppose on that basis, I'm not going to see these new icons anymore whatever CCP does. That's actually quite comforting for me right now, but it is probably a bad indication of the fitness of this product.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1100 - 2015-06-04 18:52:10 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
All they need is to make all drones x's again. Then anything on your grid that's pointy is a ship. Bigger pointies are bigger ships. It becomes much more manageable this way.

But make the NPC ships distinguishable by something other than colour. Colour AND something else fine, but not colour alone. Up/down arrows could work, I'd have to see it in-client to know.


Your brain will process color even faster than it processes shape or tries to analyze size of similar shapes. Color is the FIRST thing that should be used to differentiate NPCs so that your brain can filter them out in a pinch. In fact I think if you're not utilizing the already-existing option to color things in your overview based on player/npc, you're doing ithings slightly wrong. Not to say everything now is good and dandy. Just that you're shooting yourself in the foot subtly already.