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Carnyx release - General feedback

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Author
Olleybear
Armed And Angry
#1061 - 2015-06-04 16:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Olleybear
News Icons ( yes there are a LOT of icons that add confusion to the space scene, but others have explained this better than I can )

The most important thing CCP could do with this icon change is to bring back the crosses for NPC's. It is difficult to tell the difference between players and npc when neutral players are grey and npc’s are grey.

NPC's should not be able to be mistaken for players. Ever. Changing the NPC's back to crosses will make it much easier to use the information in the form of new icons CCP have given us.

Having a legend in game, that is easily findable, of what each icon is should be available when such a huge change to the game takes place. Yes, this is a huge change. It effects how we interact with the game when we are in space in our spaceship game.

Now, I do like the idea of giving more information at a glance when in combat. The idea is a good one. The implementation is just off a bit.

For instance, it took me looking at the picture of the new icons someone so generously linked before I even realized NPC's were shaded and players were not shaded. The reason? The icons are small and both npc’s and neutrals are grey.

Possible way to help with this:
Adjust the little circle of color around the icons in space that denotes blues, reds, neutrals, etc. This circle of color needs to be bigger. As it is there just isnt a large enough area for the color to be easily distinguishable on such small icons. Some icons are worse than others like the frigate icon whose inside fill space is very tiny.

So there is no room for misunderstanding. It looks like the idea behind the icon change is to give players more information at a glance. This is a very good idea that I embrace. The implementation just needs tweaked.

One last thing. Bring back the capsule icon. The capsule icon looked like a capsule before the patch. Dont know what that new thing is but it is not a capsule.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#1062 - 2015-06-04 16:42:46 UTC
On the plus side, the new propulsion module names are top notch.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1063 - 2015-06-04 16:43:20 UTC
Di Mulle wrote:
CCP Surge wrote:


That's not true. We're definitely still keeping tabs on this thread and assessing the situation. Just don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from us so soon. For now keep the feedback coming, keep it constructive. Thanks


Maybe it is a wording issue, but it feels like you perceive this situation as a kind of a fight.

This is natural for any creative person, but please understand that the players are here not to rub a dev ego. Or, for that matter, to hurt it.

While I too would appreciate a more compassionate response from the developers on this subject, it's worth noting that many of them are not native English speakers and the cold brush offs are likely not intended. It's just an unfortunate result of the language barrier.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1064 - 2015-06-04 16:45:02 UTC
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1065 - 2015-06-04 16:52:13 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.

In general, ya.. but I know several older players who simply can't see the difference anymore. And that makes it much harder.
Benito Arias
Angry Mustellid
#1066 - 2015-06-04 16:54:12 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:

This is a completely subjective assessment. I can see the new icons more clearly than the old ones. I find them significantly less ambiguous. I've looked at the pictures of what people consider confusing and overwhelming and all I see is clarity.

The obvious exception is the 90% scaling problem. That's just flat-out broken, and CCP should have collected and acted on that information before rolling this out.

If this gets rolled back, then I suppose I can go back to not being able to see player ships nearly as well as rats (whose old icons were strong and iconic), mistaking destroyers and cruisers and battlecruisers, and not really seeing cruisers and larger ships at all, because those icons are thin and weak and nearly indistinguishable from the bounding box of the overview column. The game is playable that way--I just ignored the icons and looked at the ship type column--but I was really looking forward to this.


Yes, it's subjective, and it comes from someone who has been enjoying space PvP for 5 years, every other day or so. Have you?

In order to make it, I didn't look at pictures, I warped into a PvP heavy grid on Sisi, where all the things were moving, stopping, disappearing and appearing again. I imagined I was trying to report it in a live fleet on TQ. I was terrified by the amount of different shaped which basically mean the same. 8 shapes for ships, 8 shapes for drones, plus wrecks. Sixteen odd shapes to recognize against two (!) with old brackets, only to make a count of ships and whether they have drones out or not. Where's clarity in that?

So you are saying you had to use the type column in the overview. Well you should have, because the idea that you can put all the tactically relevant information into an icon is silly.

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1067 - 2015-06-04 17:00:26 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.

Indeed.

In reality most of us will still be here long after these Devs have moved on to their next job. Maybe that inequality of investment is one source of the rage. For many of us EVE is a passion, for many of them EVE is a job. For me it is all too easy to respond to damage to EVE like an attack on a loved one, for them it may just be another workplace breakage, another ticket number or another task that must be completed before they get to go home.

I certainly apologize for my part in this unpleasant episode. But it still takes two to tango.
ZapStar253
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1068 - 2015-06-04 17:08:58 UTC
I am Glad another poster mentioned Older player( age in rl ), having more difficulty with the new icons,True.

Also CCP I already have trouble at times seeing the cycle timer that circle Modules when active (please consider making this more visible in the future!
Shocked
Sere O'Asis
Desert Oasis Investigations
#1069 - 2015-06-04 17:21:33 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.

In general, ya.. but I know several older players who simply can't see the difference anymore. And that makes it much harder.



It can be younger players with less than perfect vision that can't tell the difference either.
Bonaventured
Gladius Veritatis
Goonswarm Federation
#1070 - 2015-06-04 17:23:48 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed an off topic post.

No, you just removed posts who you believe are off topic. In effect you removed posts who you don't like it because are too obviously true .
Steijn
Quay Industries
#1071 - 2015-06-04 17:30:59 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.


it doesnt matter what its over, the point is that the game in its current state is unplayable for myself, and for plenty of others judging by this thread.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1072 - 2015-06-04 17:38:39 UTC
As the feedback from more and more players is gathered, i sense that the ones who are ok with the new icons are not normaly meeting critical situations where instant reflexes are needed to survive.
It looks like missionner, miners, traders, etc like the new icons.
And players doing PvP or living in hostile environment (WS, explo...) hate them.
Which proves that they are bad : EVE is supposed to be a harsh environment where you can any time be attacked by other players, you devs have bragged enough about that (hmn, mr Falcon ?). So the new icons are not adapted to the core of EVE : PvP.
Admit your fail and stop to annoy us with useless and game-breaking "features" directly coming from your marketing department.
I'm not angry at the devs, i know that they have to obey if they want to stay employed. I'm angry at the decision makers.

I have found a title for this release : "Incarna 2, the revenge of CCP"
Sky Marshal
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1073 - 2015-06-04 17:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
CCP Surge wrote:
That's not true. We're definitely still keeping tabs on this thread and assessing the situation. Just don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from us so soon. For now keep the feedback coming, keep it constructive. Thanks

Ok, try to remember the Akasai battle or check this image, it is about a recent goon event : http://imgur.com/omAP0FI

Yeah sorry, I don't still have a big fight with the new icons set (and I seriously hope I won't have one), and my overview was badly setted (but I will update it as the tabs will partially counter the new icons).

And now by using your imagination power, replace the old drone icon by at least 4 drone icons of the new set, and the ships by the corresponding one of course. And please keep tell us that the new icons are a good idea who permit a fast and efficient analysis of the field. Please, DARE.

Of course, this kind of battle is rare and it is probable that Fozziesov change that, but it is obvious that the new icons are an absolute failure as they transform the field into an terrifying mess.

If you still want to change the icons, then at least try to respect the old way even if you want to use new icons :
- one drone icon, not more
(maybe if you add an option to disable it, you can add a second one to separate warfare/mining drones from fighting drones, as a test)
- one icon for a SIZE of ship, NOT a type, with - why not - colors (but not red) if it is a T2/T3 variant. And - maybe - the exception of the industrial ships who can have ONE specific icon (and I mean one ONLY).
- one icon for containers. Seriously, there is no point to have different icons for each of them.
- and restore the old wreck ones, or at least the old logic.

You can do easier and give us an option or a way to mod the game and so restore the old icons. Your call, but don't be surprised of consequences if you keep the new ones and do nothing. Even for CCP, there is a time that you should stop being pride of bad choices.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1074 - 2015-06-04 17:47:07 UTC
Steijn wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.


it doesnt matter what its over, the point is that the game in its current state is unplayable for myself, and for plenty of others judging by this thread.


So, what it boils down to is "I'm used to playing this way and they changed it. Change it back!" right?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1075 - 2015-06-04 17:48:27 UTC
CCP Surge wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
i want the old icons back,

im afraid since the majority of the community is saying the same. ccp has put on the wall module and are no longer paying any attention to this thread.


That's not true. We're definitely still keeping tabs on this thread and assessing the situation. Just don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from us so soon. For now keep the feedback coming, keep it constructive. Thanks

I sincerely hope that my suggestion of customizing our brackets/icons per ship/item class is on the table, and keeping the old icons as part of that. I'm 100% sure I wasn't the first to propose it because that would be silly.
Jackie Esticato
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1076 - 2015-06-04 17:48:47 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Steijn wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
In a way, it's hilarious to see people threatening to leave over icons.


it doesnt matter what its over, the point is that the game in its current state is unplayable for myself, and for plenty of others judging by this thread.


So, what it boils down to is "I'm used to playing this way and they changed it. Change it back!" right?



Not always, thought some are.

For a lot of people, it's not that the icon's were changed, it that they were changed for the worse.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1077 - 2015-06-04 17:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Benito Arias wrote:
In order to make it, I didn't look at pictures, I warped into a PvP heavy grid on Sisi, where all the things were moving, stopping, disappearing and appearing again. I imagined I was trying to report it in a live fleet on TQ. I was terrified by the amount of different shaped which basically mean the same. 8 shapes for ships, 8 shapes for drones, plus wrecks. Sixteen odd shapes to recognize against two (!) with old brackets, only to make a count of ships and whether they have drones out or not. Where's clarity in that?


So in other words, your test was to jump in to the worst case immediately and then complain that it was bad.

OK.

I've eased myself in, because that's the sensible thing to do when confronted with a new icon set.

Quote:
So you are saying you had to use the type column in the overview. Well you should have, because the idea that you can put all the tactically relevant information into an icon is silly.


OK, so have one icon for "player ship" and be done with it? For me, that would be better than the old way, because as I mentioned, I couldn't rely on the old player ship icons at all.

The new icons don't have all the information. For my money they do a much, much better job of communicating hull size and general category, which is what they're supposed to do..

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1078 - 2015-06-04 17:53:08 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Benito Arias wrote:
In order to make it, I didn't look at pictures, I warped into a PvP heavy grid on Sisi, where all the things were moving, stopping, disappearing and appearing again. I imagined I was trying to report it in a live fleet on TQ. I was terrified by the amount of different shaped which basically mean the same. 8 shapes for ships, 8 shapes for drones, plus wrecks. Sixteen odd shapes to recognize against two (!) with old brackets, only to make a count of ships and whether they have drones out or not. Where's clarity in that?


So in other words, your test was to jump in to the worst case immediately and then complain that it was bad.

OK.

I've eased myself in, because that's the sensible thing to do when confronted with a new icon set.

Quote:
So you are saying you had to use the type column in the overview. Well you should have, because the idea that you can put all the tactically relevant information into an icon is silly.


OK, so have one icon for "player ship" and be done with it? For me, that would be better than the old way, because as I mentioned, I couldn't rely on the old player ship icons at all.

The new icons don't have all the information. For my money they do a much, much better job of communicating hull size and general category, which is what they're supposed to do..



What do you care you don't even play this game.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1079 - 2015-06-04 17:54:50 UTC
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
What do you care you don't even play this game.


If I didn't care I wouldn't post. Try harder.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1080 - 2015-06-04 17:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyr Dolorem
You care about posting not what you're posting about.

inb4 isd hammer