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Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#301 - 2015-05-05 00:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?
Teckos Pech wrote:
I'd advise stop feeding the troll here. If you make a valid point he'll either ignore it, or claim it is one of the "wall jumping" exceptions which don't count or something.

SP wall leaping mechanics are situations when even a dog or a bot is equally useful to a high SP character, not to mention the most ill-described low SP one. In those situation SP indeed does not matter, which is why they are called "SP wall leaping mechanics", and there's just 3 of them, surely even a goon can count that high.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Amy Undergood
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
#302 - 2015-05-05 01:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Amy Undergood
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?

Oh yes, absolutely.

It's the same approach you use, but our right is correct.

Every post you make further proves it because you are unable to provide any direct proof of what you claim. Thank you for your continued demonstration of how right I and those of us that think the same, are.
Solecist Project
#303 - 2015-05-05 01:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Kamala wrote:
Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh.

Except when they reach [racial] frigate V.
Small blasters V.
Small blaster spec V.

etc. etc.

I don't understand how people can be so completely disconnected from reality.
Do you run around, complaining that children have it unfair compared to adults?

It's how the world works. When you start doing something,
you do not know how to do it well until you get better.



I think you should read twice before retorting like that.

Generally, every PC game ever, and every MMO ever, works on the principle that the more you play it, and the better you play it, the faster you acquire skills, items etc...

Whereas EVE is the only game in which a person that has logged in once 5 years ago, created an account and subscribed for a year can have more skills than a player that's been playing the game actively for the last six months or so.

The only way a newer player catches up is if the older player drops his subscription for a while.

I'm not claiming that the system is bad right off the bat, but I am saying it is different and weird and therefore should remain open for discussion.

Also, I don't get the children-adults analogy. What does the general process of human aging have to do with EVE?
Are you sure?

It rather seems that the more people play, the harder it gets to level up.
Not the other way round.

This is a mechanism that keeps people addicted.
The first fixes come fast but continuously it gets harder and harder to feel satisfied.

EVE is different because it does not use such mechanics to make people addicted.
The skill system is different, as it progresses over time without the need for grinding.

And new players do not need to catch up! besides this being wrong anyway,
they have their own generation of people they are on par with!

It's realistic! You get born into a world and have to deal with the fact
that there are older people who know more and better.

EVE mimics the real world, unlike all these other games.

It's great as it is. The idea of being unable to catch up is bullshit.
If this was true it would have been an issue already years ago.

The unfairness is illusionary.
EVE mimics the real world with this and it's right to do so.


How about NO.

EVE does not mimic the real world in any shape or form for several reasons.

In the real world just because you are older it doesn't automatically mean that you are better than someone in something. While experience does count, things like talent, dedication and hard work count for more than a person's age. Also in the real world you don't advance yourself by sitting on your behind but by doing stuff.

In EVE I get no bonus whatsoever on training of say the Gallente Destroyer skill even though I'm flying such a destroyer while I'm training the said skill.

Basically EVE suggest that you can train something just by reading a book about it without ever actually doing or trying to do the said something. And also that the person who starts reading first will automatically be better at that thing than the person who started to read about it last.

If only I had started to read about Football before Messi, or about Electrical engineering before Tesla, I could have been both the world's greatest footballer and the world's greatest inventor at the same time.

EVE has nothing to do with real life so please stop deluding yourself.

I generally dislike EVE's SP system because it accounts only for the natural progression of time and whether or not a player has an active subscription going.

Bottom line is, if I'm flying around and shooting my railgun at people than I would expect my hybrid turret skill to level up faster than the guy's who's training the same thing by staying logged off, parked on his couch, and with his eyes glued to dr. Oz.

With that said, the guy whining about SP being crucial is wrong.

SP is only one variable in a pretty big equation.

Although the same guy is right about you being sort of a drama queen. Bear

In no way or form.

Except when it comes to natural laws,
where the strong/adaptive kill the weak.

Except when it comes to numbers,
when people group up and crush smaller entities.

Except when it comes to social engineering,
to manipulate people into doing something.

Except when it comes to social interaction and the butterfly effect,
which shows that just like in the real world, everyone is connected with everyone else.

Except for when new players enter the game,
who start with nothing and have to grow, (via SP and experience)
and learn how to survive (just because "civilisation" seems to remove this, it's still natural)
and compete with the older generation.


In no way or form... mhm.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#304 - 2015-05-05 01:11:08 UTC
Amy Undergood wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?

Oh yes, absolutely.

It's the same approach you use, but our right is correct.

Every post you make further proves it because you are unable to provide any direct proof of what you claim. Thank you for your continued demonstration of how right I and those of us that think the same, are.


There has been a load of direct proof provided and you weren't even brave enough to quote it, preferring to call it names.
Well, those are internetz. All your carefully selected proof will be ignored.
To be showered with proof and claim none was received, while being afraid to even quote the material 1/10.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Amy Undergood
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
#305 - 2015-05-05 01:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Amy Undergood
Basil Pupkin wrote:

There has been a load of direct proof provided and you weren't even brave enough to quote it, preferring to call it names.
Well, those are internetz. All your carefully selected proof will be ignored.
To be showered with proof and claim none was received, while being afraid to even quote the material 1/10.

Oh no, I am not afraid. In fact, I would welcome direct proof. There is no better way to prove my own point than to spin any proof you provide into supporting my view.

I've learnt that from one so competent at it. You.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to quote as no direct proof has been offered.

But more than happy to spin any that you can actually provide.

However, I must once again congratulate you for supporting my view. Each post without proof just further proves you have no evidence, thus my view is more correct.

I sincerely hope CCP finally take note and increase the gap between new and old players. It just isn't large enough at the moment.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#306 - 2015-05-05 02:14:01 UTC
Imagine you spend 10 years building up a region like Providence.
Then virtually over night a group like Brave explodes into existance next to you with no SP requirements.

Everything swept away by a flash mob.
No thanks.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2015-05-05 02:26:24 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
El Taron wrote:
Good post, but I don't agree it's entirely a player created situation. CCP are the ones who determine the effectiveness, cost and ease of use of links, logi, ewar and cynos. (Don't get me started on how ridiculous OGB's are). If those problems were less effective, more difficult to use (piloting or SP) or more expensive then fewer players would use them and the less it becomes a concern.

And I would disagree with this point too "Players don't get any benefit for not stacking deck and everything to lose for not doing. In this game so why wouldn't you if you are able?"

Simply - fun. It's much more fun and satisfying to fight somebody in a "worse" ship or against the odds. Ganking somebody who didn't stand a chance is only fun if it's something expensive, someone you don't like or if you're new to pvp.

You can say oh its the sandbox or whatever but I think it's bad for the game how the small gang scene is at the moment. CCP in my opinion should be looking at how they can encourage players to participate because otherwise content dries up for everybody.

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, I struggle to motivate myself to undock at the moment, just because it's too hard to find content and when you eventually do, the other guy/s isn't interested in a good fight, just killing you at minimal risk to themselves whether its links,logi,ewar or a blob. That isn't good for the game, it's how you lose customers.

The game has become about gangs and cynoing around for timers. I mean hardly anyone even seems to roam even now. If people aren't roaming then there is less chance of finding fights and less content generated which again is boring for everyone involved.

Perhaps most people are happy farming Sanctums and occasionally forming for timers in a laggy system where their decisions and participation have virtually no bearing on the outcome of the fight and all they get to do is press F1 on whoever they're told to. I don't expect everybody to agree with me but that's definately not for me.


PvP for the sake of PvP is meaningless. There are a multitude of objectives and goals in EVE - remember, the sandbox does have walls after all.


Um wot? You realize that whether you are doing 1v1s in lowsec or building castles in null it's all still pixels.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#308 - 2015-05-05 03:57:38 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?


We don't need a proof for something that is trivial and obvious.

See it goes like this:

Hypothesis: Basil Pupkin is wrong.

Proof:

Trivial.

Q.E.D.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#309 - 2015-05-05 04:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?


We don't need a proof for something that is trivial and obvious.

See it goes like this:

Hypothesis: Basil Pupkin is wrong.

Proof:

Trivial.

Q.E.D.


So, from "cuz I said so" we came down to "lalala I can't hear you".
Well, as expected. Thoughtless humans confronted with reality do that all the time.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Imagine you spend 10 years building up a region like Providence.
Then virtually over night a group like Brave explodes into existance next to you with no SP requirements.

Everything swept away by a flash mob.
No thanks.


Imagine you spent 10 years building up a region like Providence and no Brave can approach it now.
Booooooooooooooring. No thanks.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Amy Undergood
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
#310 - 2015-05-05 04:46:31 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Imagine you spent 10 years building up a region like Providence and no Brave can approach it now.
Booooooooooooooring. No thanks.

Confirming once again that new players can make a huge difference, not only in pvp, but in sov null pvp too.

Grrr new players.

Thanks Basil.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#311 - 2015-05-05 05:07:55 UTC
The only SP you need for pvp is the ability to pilot a frigate, strap on a mwd and fit a point of some kind. Everything else is an optional extra.
Deuce McGuilicuddy
Jebediah's Minimally Invasive Salvage and Recovery
#312 - 2015-05-05 06:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Deuce McGuilicuddy
Dear CCP,

I demand a grappling hook. The Great Wall of SP has truly proven to be insurmountable. As a newish player with less than 50, 80, 120 or however many million skill points Basil pulls out of his ass to suit his hypothesis (I use this term in the loosest possible fashion) I do hereby swear that if I do not have a grappling hook and a ninja outfit to go with it in my hangar when I log in in the morning I will proceed to shoot the monument in Jita for the remainder of my subscription then rage quit. Or I would if I had gotten around to training those gunnery skills. Correction CCP, I will be bumping the monument in Jita, and I blame my inability to protest properly on Basils SP wall.

Kindest regards,
Deuce

Edit: is the wall jumping mechanic a pogo stick? It's gotta be a pogo stick. Get on it CCP us newbs got a wall to jump.
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
Something Really Pretentious
#313 - 2015-05-05 06:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Oh, and Basil, you're very wrong.

Your proof of that being "cuz I said so", amirite?
Teckos Pech wrote:
I'd advise stop feeding the troll here. If you make a valid point he'll either ignore it, or claim it is one of the "wall jumping" exceptions which don't count or something.

SP wall leaping mechanics are situations when even a dog or a bot is equally useful to a high SP character, not to mention the most ill-described low SP one. In those situation SP indeed does not matter, which is why they are called "SP wall leaping mechanics", and there's just 3 of them, surely even a goon can count that high.


Why are you so stuck on the concept of a "SP wall"? For a 2010 char this seems rather pointless. You either are trying to be the "hero" of the low SP chars, or you yourself have had a large lapse in your play time and have low SP yourself. SP determines what you can use..not how you use it. The real skill in a pilot is not a number plastered on your char sheet. You have no killborad at all, which doesn't mean anything..granted, but it shows you are not an active PvPer in any form and therefor makes your assesment of the "SP wall" rather uncredible. You have to do, in order to know. Nothing towards you personally or course. Many people have many chars, so ifyou do indeed PvP on another character, than I can admit I was wrong about that aspect of my comment...but I still do not agree with the "SP wall" point.

Again..skill is determined by the pilot, not the SP number. Any veteran PvPer knows this. Having a more expensive car doesn't make someone a better driver... Sp is what you train to use items..such as ships and modules...skill is how a player uses them to the best of his ability. There is a big difference between the two. The player who can use what he has better..wins...not the player who can use more gadgets. Think about it.. Blink

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Deuce McGuilicuddy
Jebediah's Minimally Invasive Salvage and Recovery
#314 - 2015-05-05 06:42:07 UTC
I'm pretty sure no matter how much evidence and logic you throw at Basil, you will always get the same response from him. Pretty much everyone in the thread has argued with him and refuted every point he made, and he hasn't even lost his stride. He's made himself look so ignorant I almost feel bad for him. Then I remember he plays this same game in every thread that he posts in. I don't even think he's a troll. I truly believe that he is, in fact, that dense.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#315 - 2015-05-05 06:45:58 UTC
Deuce McGuilicuddy wrote:
I'm pretty sure no matter how much evidence and logic you throw at Basil, you will always get the same response from him. Pretty much everyone in the thread has argued with him and refuted every point he made, and he hasn't even lost his stride. He's made himself look so ignorant I almost feel bad for him. Then I remember he plays this same game in every thread that he posts in. I don't even think he's a troll. I truly believe that he is, in fact, that dense.


Delusional, IMO. But hey...a word that starts with 'd'.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Deuce McGuilicuddy
Jebediah's Minimally Invasive Salvage and Recovery
#316 - 2015-05-05 07:06:57 UTC
I had another "D" word in mind when I started the post, but I figured I'd save the ISD's from having to snip out a legitimate ad hominem attack.
Solecist Project
#317 - 2015-05-05 07:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Teckos Pech wrote:
Deuce McGuilicuddy wrote:
I'm pretty sure no matter how much evidence and logic you throw at Basil, you will always get the same response from him. Pretty much everyone in the thread has argued with him and refuted every point he made, and he hasn't even lost his stride. He's made himself look so ignorant I almost feel bad for him. Then I remember he plays this same game in every thread that he posts in. I don't even think he's a troll. I truly believe that he is, in fact, that dense.


Delusional, IMO. But hey...a word that starts with 'd'.
The sad part is that people will complain about me calling it out what it is.

A mental health issue.


He's either a great actor, or ill. "You emotional type".
Just turn that around and look at what it says about him.

He's not rational. That's nuts. There is no "emotional type".
Every single human being is driven by their feelings,
including all those people who suppress them because of ... experiences.


He's so much off, he thinks of himself higher than the rest.
Higher than normally functioning human beings,
compared to him who is - at best - half of that without realising.


Every one of us is, in his view, underneath him.
He's so completely locked up inside his logic ...
... that no matter what ...
... either one breaks him and makes him show his suppressed side ...
... or he'll just continue this way.


I wasn't kidding or trolling when I said avoiding him would be a good thing.


IRL I would stay far away from such a person,
because that guy would kill you if he figured out a way to get away with it,
if you just tickle him enough to force him into doing something that
prevents you from bursting that reality bubble he lives in.

Because in his eyes, we all are literally underneath him.


As I said ... either a great actor, or he should visit a mental health institute.

Ban me all you want for this.
It's not an attack, it's simply the truth.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Jenshae Chiroptera
#318 - 2015-05-05 11:05:41 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Imagine you spend 10 years building up a region like Providence.
Then virtually over night a group like Brave explodes into existance next to you with no SP requirements.

Everything swept away by a flash mob.
No thanks.
Imagine you spent 10 years building up a region like Providence and no Brave can approach it now.
Booooooooooooooring. No thanks.
... or they can build up and not have a sense of entitlement and immediate self gratification.
Skill points also reduced the pay to win factor.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#319 - 2015-05-05 13:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Um wot? You realize that whether you are doing 1v1s in lowsec or building castles in null it's all still pixels.


So? If I want to just PvP with no set goal in mind, there are other games that offer much more complex and engaging gameplay than EVE. MMOs are all about the social aspect, if you want to play it as a solo game, you are doing it very, very wrong. EVE is all about the community and building up your community's strength.
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
#320 - 2015-05-05 14:23:39 UTC
Eve is all about telling other players how to play the damn game!