Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes we can drop Astero from the list, they are exploration frigates after all, and use drones more than turrets anyway.
Same for the Crucifier i guess, although, it is more common to see Crucifier with lasers as it is kind of an Amarr Tristan (less than the Sentinel, the only eWar frigate viable in combat (not strictly as a pure eWar frigate)) i would be ok to drop it, if we drop Tristans. ;)

It still reflects my point anyway, more or even Laser hulls than hybrid hulls, the fact is that lasers are doin less damage overall anyway, despite their relativly easier applications than hybrids with less tracking and short short optimal.

http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1


I wish it was true, though, the statistics don't really show that.

Well then you might have noticed what most of the small gangs and solo pvpers had not, go ahead and create a new meta ! :p

I do know that Beam tormentors and Beam Slicers are quite effective when well piloted.
But "well piloted" is rare, and people who uses those kind of fits are already experienced pilots just by the fact they passed time on EFT or PYFA or just testing those ships and theorizing about them.
Most of the Eve players just follows meta stuffs or "battle-clinic" fits.. :D

I agree, don't cry it out too loud, i'm jus trying to make amarr even more OP.

What proof do you have of this?

Lol at statistics.

T1 frigs are used more in fleets because it easy to organise and equip a group in T1 frigs, and more people can fly them. They have NO WHERE near the DPS of faction and T2 frigs and are in general no where near as good. They are just convenient. Few people in Black Rise and Citadel actually fly T1 frigs on a regular basis in small gangs. Its either Navy, Pirate or T3Ds.

People in Calmil/Galmil tend to train for those ships because of shared hybrid weapons. Then they train for drones because Ishtards, or generally sentries, which consequently brings them on the path of Tristans and Algoses which have excellent damage projection throughout what, 60km? They are no brainer ships.

Beams have one of the highest raw DPS. Plug it in EFT. Beam Executioners are rektasauruses. Their only real downside is limited damage types.
But at frig levels all small turrets deal roughly half of their EFT damage as there are limited slots to blow on resists. 3 bonused beams deal roughly 200 per hit, and no less than 150 unless tracking is involved. This puts beams marginally on top of other ships in terms of damage, and tips the scale in their favor when considering the range.

Kiting and scram kiting is dominant, hence beams are on top of the food chain. zKillboard says otherwise, and you intend to interpret beam superiority as a false statement, because not that many people have Amarr/Beam skilled into, and they have a limited playstyle.

I think I've found a bug on the test-server, while trying to test out tuesdays changes.

While checking my Confessor, which is set up in the form of "gun gun gun empty gun gun gun" highslots, I noticed that the last gunslot has just disappeared.

Yes, the slots have been reduced from 7 to 6, thus removing the last highslot, but in turn the actual gun seems to just be invisible.

When I removed all the guns (the 5 I can see), and I try to readd the 4 I'm allowed, I can only add 3 as the 4th brings up an error that all my turret slots are filled. Even the circles underneath the turret-icon are all 4 filled, while I only added 3 guns.

This is not a bigproblem on the test-server as I can simply repackage and readd rigs, but I prefer not to waste money on something so silly when released to TQ.

I'm running off of stats and the numbers I've run on the different guns. If I've stated an opinion I've tried to make sure that it's clearly labeled and that my argument isn't hinging on it.



I'm not forgetting the damage multipliers on T2 or Faction hulls, the number of T1 hulls is just that much greater than T2 hulls, even though there are more T2 and Faction hulls overall. That's not really the case in Faction Warfare but Faction Warfare is a tiny fraction of the overall PvP in Eve. If you're having trouble with the stats pages on zKillboard try the Monthly Top page for the various ship Groups.



Citation needed, on all of this. Plenty of Null groups will use frigates for roams and fleets outside of Sov defense or assaults.



That's not really the case. You need to look at why a ship is being used as much or as little as it is. For example the Bhaalgorn does't see a ton of use relative to the other Faction Battleships, and certainly does less damage than any of the others, but that's because it's a fairly specialized hull and tends to mount Neuts and NOS over guns and is only used in those specific situations, where as more combat focused Faction ships will see higher damage rates and greater use.

Another example, and one that's more applicable to this thread (unlike the rest of this topic, which is in an whole other zip code at this point ) is the relative use of the various T3 Cruisers. These are generally accepted to be headed for a major re-balance, probably an overall nerf to performance if not utility. The Tengu is currently the least used of the four. This doesn't mean that it does't need a nerf, even if its performance metrics compare favorably to its T2 and Faction competition, it just means that the other T3 Cruisers are relatively better and therefore being used instead.

Stuff like this is why CCP does, in-fact, use a lot of data when deciding whether or not a ship needs to be balanced or not, and even more data when looking at how to balance it. For example a single ship or ship type being used in Null doctrines or for any specific and very popular role will bump all of its performance metrics. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ship is OP, but it doesn't mean that it isn't either.

That's why I'm really starting to hate that damage graph because it's being thrown around like definitive proof of all sorts of problems when it's a single statistic and not even a particularly well defined one either. We have no historical context, no scale, and no idea which ships are generating how much of that data. For example you can be very sure that gank Catalysts are generating a lot of that Hybrids spike in the Destroyer class, but we don't know how much.

I have ATD to level 4 on TQ and SiSi.
You might have yours to 5 then so your -12 dps would be the "real" dps nerf from Mosaic i guess.

I've put 2 SACR T2 rigs + One trimark i could therefore swap my meta 400mm for a T2, but no utilitary HighSlots. (no utilitary highslots with a meta 4 400mm either anyway.

On TQ 1 SACR T2 rig + 2 T1 Trimark = 11 611 EHP on Def Mode without the DC turning.
On Sisi 2 SACR T2 rigs + 1 T2 Trimark = 11 392 EHP

Oh and btw CCP, your new Damage Control icone is ugly. :x *upset* :(

That's only one specific situation though, not overall health. Also that came before this series of tweaks and changes which affected some of the frigates you just listed, as well as others.

One example of why this doesn't make a good balance metric. A ship may be best in a certain type of role, for example the Harpy is good in a fleet setup where its ability to fit a large tank, good mobility, and damage projection can all be useful and its lack of mids when fitting said tank doesn't hurt so much. If that type of setup is popular then the ship will see an increase in metrics despite being in a fairly healthy place. Conversely if a type of play that a ship excels in isn't happening as much, even relative to other types of play, that ship may show lower metrics despite also being in a healthy place. Even the two different hypothetical styles of play can be in good overall places even if one is more popular or involving more players (for example Wormholes relative to High Sec Incursion, to pull two random game elements out of some hole or other).

To sort of vaguely tie this back into the thread...

The problem with the Tactical Destroyers is they quickly became very dominant in an area of PvP that was formerly extremely diverse, and that's not healthy.

So when did the notoriously slowest ship race decide to build ships faster than the classically fastest race? I mean seriously Mim ships have lower overall tanks and to compensate get a speed bonus, yet here the tankier ship is also the faster of the 2. Smart play there!

I thought CCP nerfed the tracking of small Beams in the last patch, are they really that good?