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[April] [Updated] Confessor and Svipul Balance Tweaks

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Tia Lee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#481 - 2015-04-22 21:25:34 UTC
Orob Ninebands wrote:
What a bunch of whiners! Most ships can fit an AB one size larger, why shouldn't a T3D?

I've gotten my but kicked by T3Ds plenty, but rather than cry about it, I learned to fly them myself. Come up with a counter folks.

I'm not opposed to making them cost a bit more to reflect their capability, but ffs, do we have to nerf every good thing just because people can't adapt?


lmao
Ivarr Kerensky
Kerensky Tactical Group
#482 - 2015-04-22 22:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivarr Kerensky
Orob Ninebands wrote:
What a bunch of whiners! Most ships can fit an AB one size larger, why shouldn't a T3D?

I've gotten my but kicked by T3Ds plenty, but rather than cry about it, I learned to fly them myself. Come up with a counter folks.

I'm not opposed to making them cost a bit more to reflect their capability, but ffs, do we have to nerf every good thing just because people can't adapt?



So your idea of adapting is to fly them yourself, and now that you do you don't want them changed because :reasons:.

Excellence is an attitude.
Tia Lee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#483 - 2015-04-22 22:50:35 UTC
Ivarr Kerensky wrote:
Orob Ninebands wrote:
What a bunch of whiners! Most ships can fit an AB one size larger, why shouldn't a T3D?

I've gotten my but kicked by T3Ds plenty, but rather than cry about it, I learned to fly them myself. Come up with a counter folks.

I'm not opposed to making them cost a bit more to reflect their capability, but ffs, do we have to nerf every good thing just because people can't adapt?



So your idea of adapting is to fly them yourself, and now that you do you don't want them changed because :reasons:.


stop it! he learned to fly them HIMSELF!11 sneaky, adaptable pvper he is. IMHO all the folks who say that t3 dessies are op and create a boring meta are just not smart enough to fly them themselves!

Adapt or die!!!11 :D
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#484 - 2015-04-23 00:17:26 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Now thats not to say i havent killed them. I have killed a lot of t3ds.. but it wasnt done in a frigate.
. . .
They were killed by BC's or BS, because i could fit the necessary tackle to hold one/neut them/ and then destroy them without sacrificing my entire tank to do that. Which is something frigates and some cruisers cannot afford to do.


So you see, Ivar Kerensky and Tia lee, you don't have to use a Tech III destroyer to kill a Tech III destroyer. Don't take it from me. Take it from a Minmatar ship expert. He has a lot of experience. Battleships, battlecruisers, and some cruisers can counter the Tech III destroyers 1 vs 1. And, as a non-expert, I'll just throw another ship class out there as food for thought: Electronic Attack Frigates. Put one next to your Wolf while you're attacking (or being attacked by) a Svipul and, maybe it can do something to help you.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#485 - 2015-04-23 04:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

So, on the one hand, assault frigates are obsolete because they are 600m/s slower than a propulsion mode Svipul (presumably MWD fitted). On the other hand, Svipul is overpowered even when Wolf and Jaguar are 400-500m/s faster than Svipul in 2 of its 3 tactical modes.


I was really debating on commenting back, i was debating between if you lack the skills of reading comprehension, or if you're just trolling. But here goes, you'll probably just ignore everything but the stuff you want to cherry pick to suit your argument.

The svipul when fit with arty and mwd + prop mode, NEVER needs to leave that mode. Therefore, yes it is faster than the 2 fastest AF in the game. It does more or almost equal dps with the lowest damage ammo, than the wolf/jag do with high damage ammo. It has better projection than the jag/wolf, is faster, and has an equivalent tank doing the EXACT same role as the t2 specialized AF.

And if you want to compare on equal footing. The Svipul outclasses the Sabre easily in the same situation. In fact, it does it far better because it can fit arty + tank w/o gimping the fit in fitting mods. Plus it can fit TE's since it has 4 lows to play with, compared to the 2 on the sabre.

Since the jag/wolf are the fastest AF, how bout we compare the Svipul to the other AF.

Hawk w/ MWD = 2205 m/s
Harpy w/ MWD = 2199 m/s
Retribution w/ MWD = 2297 m/s
Vengeance w/ MWD = 2265 m/s
Enyo w/ MWD = 2380 m/s
Ishkur w/ MWD = 2319 m/s
Jaguar w/ MWD = 2688 m/s
Wolf w/ MWD = 2553 m/s

Svipul in defense mode w/ MWD = 2041m/s (my fit) and then in prop mode = `3500 m/s

200-600 m/s difference is not much, especially when you can flip a switch and go 3500 m/s and catch every AF in game with no problem. Or, even in d-mode, can slingshot a harpy, hawk, ret, venge while being tanky and getting a SIG REDUCTION bonus (AF territory again).

Comparing the minny AF to the svipul. The svipul can go faster than both in prop mode, sport a better tank in prop mode, and project more dps farther than both of them in prop mode. Meanwhile, not sacrificing tracking. Not even my nano jag can touch the Svipul's speed, and its the fastest AF in the game.

Why would you fly a Jaguar or Wolf over a Svipul? Also, what kind of fit you would you make in a solo frigate to fight a Svipul or confessor? And don't give me that BS about a dessie killing frigs. All manner of t1 dessies and dictors die to frigs daily, why should T3D be any different? T3 is not an "Iwin" button that you so desperately want it to be.

Quote:
Tactical destroyers are overpowered for being able to catch and destroy the slowest ships in the frigate class (Stealth bombers seem pretty damn slow, but whatever.), but the rest of the frigates, which are presumably faster, are NOT overpowered in any way.


Frigates are supposed to be fast. What world do you live in where things with MORE mass are faster and more agile than things with less mass?

Quote:
What if frigates were the problem?


So if they were, you think the best way to handle it is to release a ship that destroys solo pvp play in frigates, and also obsoletes an entire class of ships? You see nothing wrong with T3D? I think you're delusional, or trying to pretend like they weren't OP to try and avoid the nerfbat that is so desperately needed. Thankfully you're not in control, and CCP recognized an issue and is tweaking their stats.

Quote:
So, on the one hand, the Svipul's speed tank is overpowered, but on the other hand, a pirate frigate's speed tank, which is as fast or faster than a Svipul, is no problem.


Svipul = Destroyer
Pirate Frigate = Frigate

Frigates are supposed to be fast with small tanks and small sigs (they tackle). Destroyers are supposed to be slower to make up for the increased firepower and slightly higher EHP levels. The T3D does not suffer from any of these setbacks.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#486 - 2015-04-23 05:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Now thats not to say i havent killed them. I have killed a lot of t3ds.. but it wasnt done in a frigate.
. . .
They were killed by BC's or BS, because i could fit the necessary tackle to hold one/neut them/ and then destroy them without sacrificing my entire tank to do that. Which is something frigates and some cruisers cannot afford to do.


So you see, Ivar Kerensky and Tia lee, you don't have to use a Tech III destroyer to kill a Tech III destroyer. Don't take it from me. Take it from a Minmatar ship expert. He has a lot of experience. Battleships, battlecruisers, and some cruisers can counter the Tech III destroyers 1 vs 1. And, as a non-expert, I'll just throw another ship class out there as food for thought: Electronic Attack Frigates. Put one next to your Wolf while you're attacking (or being attacked by) a Svipul and, maybe it can do something to help you.


Yes, cause lets just ignore an entire playstyle (solo) Roll

"Oh, this SINGLE ship is so easy to counter with a hyena, wolf, and kitsune. Its not OP at all!" Delusional is what you are. You are just like the guy that said the best counter to a T3D, is another T3D. Hmm.. why does that sound familiar? Oh right, Ishtars+1 fleets. Because Ishtars were not OP either right?

Looking at your KB, i see you normally fly small gang/blob. So its expected to see this attitude. Your latest solo kills were a mobile tractor unit and mobile depot, damn you're a bad***. Before that you don't have a solo kill till almost a year ago.Try fighting a T3D solo in a frigate, tell me how that goes.

And like i mentioned earlier, don't use the lame excuse of dessies kill frigs. Its been proven many times over that a competent frig pilot can kill dessies/dictors in most solo cases due to their slower speeds, or lack of range control/webs.

AC and arty thrashers can get killed by a condor by out ranging them, or getting into a tight orbit to outtrack its guns for example. Why can't the jag outrun a svipul at least?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Eter Andromad
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#487 - 2015-04-23 08:36:41 UTC
I am sorry for my self for skilling another **** that will be unusefull like already ishart
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#488 - 2015-04-23 09:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mayhaw Morgan
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Its been proven many times over that a competent frig pilot can kill dessies/dictors in most solo cases due to their slower speeds, or lack of range control/webs.

AC and arty thrashers can get killed by a condor by out ranging them, or getting into a tight orbit to outtrack its guns for example.


What if frigates were the problem?
You've been conditioned to a meta where speed is a perfect defense.

Why should a larger ship be faster and more agile than a smaller one?
It's probably the same reason that a Wolf or a Jaguar are so much better than a Rifter. ::technology:: Higher octane fuel. Better space traction. Are we bringing reality into this?! Don't do it!

On the one hand, you readily accept that a projectile turret fitted to a Wolf is qualitatively better than that exact same projectile turret fitted to a Rifter (or an Erebus), yet reject the notion that a Svipul's engines are qualitatively better than a Wolf's. What's the difference?

By the way:

Svipul + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 1721.88 m/s
Svipul (propulsion mode) + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 2869.79 m/s
Rifter + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 3076.70 m/s

gg
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#489 - 2015-04-23 10:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
The new Svipul 1MN MWD is:

293 m/s base speed * (1 + (6.25 MWD boost * (1,500,000 thrust / (1,500,00 shipmass + 500,000 MWD mass))) = 1,666 / 2499 OH m/s.

In Propulsion mode: 2766 / 4149 OH m/s.

You do realise T3Ds have a bonus to overheating? Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#490 - 2015-04-23 12:38:33 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Its been proven many times over that a competent frig pilot can kill dessies/dictors in most solo cases due to their slower speeds, or lack of range control/webs.

AC and arty thrashers can get killed by a condor by out ranging them, or getting into a tight orbit to outtrack its guns for example.


What if frigates were the problem?
You've been conditioned to a meta where speed is a perfect defense.

Why should a larger ship be faster and more agile than a smaller one?
It's probably the same reason that a Wolf or a Jaguar are so much better than a Rifter. ::technology:: Higher octane fuel. Better space traction. Are we bringing reality into this?! Don't do it!

On the one hand, you readily accept that a projectile turret fitted to a Wolf is qualitatively better than that exact same projectile turret fitted to a Rifter (or an Erebus), yet reject the notion that a Svipul's engines are qualitatively better than a Wolf's. What's the difference?

By the way:

Svipul + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 1721.88 m/s
Svipul (propulsion mode) + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 2869.79 m/s
Rifter + Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive = 3076.70 m/s

gg


Reading comprehension fails again!

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Svipul in defense mode w/ MWD = 2041m/s (my fit) and then in prop mode = `3500 m/s


That was the last time i flew my Svipul. Going by numbers in game since EFT doesn't show the ship in prop mode.

Since you love to not read things. The rifter is FASTER than the jaguar and wolf. The jaguar is 300k kg heavier than a rifter. The jag and wolf are better than the rifter because they're focused in a role and because the wolf has an extra turret and a double damage bonus. The rifter is t1 and has more variety in what it theoretically could do (can't do much, rifters are pretty terrible).

The rifter also has better cap than the jag/wolf with a MWD! This is your problem, you immediately assume that if something is t2 or t3, it should automatically be better than other ships. Thats not how EVE works cupcake. Every ship has its own role/niche, when you introduce broken ships like T3D's (Svipul more than fessor), you make the ships and their roles pretty much useless.

Jag/wolf were slowed down and have a worse cap pool to compensate for their high resists, low sig, and better dps. Where is the T3D's weakness? How can another frigate (or dessie) actually attack a T3D without being face-rolled?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#491 - 2015-04-23 13:28:16 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The jag and wolf are better than the rifter because they're focused in a role and because the wolf has an extra turret and a double damage bonus.


It also has more slots, longer targeting range, way more base HP, stronger sensor strength, smaller signature radius, more scan resolution, a larger cargohold (lol) etc., etc., etc. It's pretty much better in every way than a Rifter.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you immediately assume that if something is t2 or t3, it should automatically be better than other ships. Thats not how EVE works cupcake.


Please stop.
Tia Lee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#492 - 2015-04-23 13:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tia Lee
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The jag and wolf are better than the rifter because they're focused in a role and because the wolf has an extra turret and a double damage bonus.


It also has more slots, longer targeting range, way more base HP, stronger sensor strength, smaller signature radius, more scan resolution, a larger cargohold (lol) etc., etc., etc. It's pretty much better in every way than a Rifter.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you immediately assume that if something is t2 or t3, it should automatically be better than other ships. Thats not how EVE works cupcake.


Please stop.


are you seriously still posting? You have proven that you are absolutely cluesless when it comes to game balance whatsoever. You know, the thingy t3d's and atm especially the svipul are messing with. Your whole notion that t3 should outclass t2 in all areas because they have "better technology" (LOL) is so incredibly stupid that one doesn't even know where to start. How can you not comprhend what has been written in this thread?! Anyway: Stop posting you ridiculous statements on how t3d's are fine because they can be killed by bs's and gangs with e-war support according to your "minmatar ship expert" (LOL). Statements like these may be be funny when you first read them but they also make my brain hurt. Like srsly
Captain Highfield
#493 - 2015-04-23 14:02:10 UTC
I don't if I'm the first to say this; this Re-balancing of Tactical Destroyer(s) of two, isn't good...

Could you(CCP) wait until all the Races in the game have one?

I am thinking that doing so soon is because of those players that have been victims of these ship have complained to you enough...

To them, I say; either do your best to avoid these ships or stop and skill train yourself to fly one.

Doing this Re-balancing now isn't going to make players want to train or continue training skills for these ships as the ships will lose their "tactical" presence.

I do say, these ships are bring some excitement to the game as they actually are feared; let's keep it that way... Well, change the game to where more ships are that way; feared.

Should this still go through to the patch release, you should rename them "Tactical Frigates" because that is what they will be, losing two turrets.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#494 - 2015-04-23 14:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
The jag and wolf are better than the rifter because they're focused in a role and because the wolf has an extra turret and a double damage bonus.


It also has more slots, longer targeting range, way more base HP, stronger sensor strength, smaller signature radius, more scan resolution, a larger cargohold (lol) etc., etc., etc. It's pretty much better in every way than a Rifter.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you immediately assume that if something is t2 or t3, it should automatically be better than other ships. Thats not how EVE works cupcake.


Please stop.


The derp is strong with this one. Grasping at straws much?

"It's pretty much better in every way compared to a rifter" Wow. You are really good at not reading. So its pretty much better at everything, EXCEPT the wolf/jag are slower and have noticably worse cap. Thats a significant difference you cant just toss aside because "more cargohold, SS and targeting range ". T3d do not have this trade-off of tank/speed/cap etc.They also perform the role of the jag/wolf better, meaning there is no reason to use them over a svipul. Unless you are a poor.

I wont stop till you pull your head out of your ass. Your toy is getting a needed nerf. Get over it.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#495 - 2015-04-23 15:36:43 UTC
GG CCP way to get me back to PvEing.
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#496 - 2015-04-23 19:56:33 UTC
Why people are arguing on how T3 Dessies should or shouldn't be better than AFs, while T3 Cruisers can compete with BSs ??

I don't get it.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#497 - 2015-04-23 20:15:05 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Why people are arguing on how T3 Dessies should or shouldn't be better than AFs, while T3 Cruisers can compete with BSs ??

I don't get it.


Because those are broken too with T2 resist profiles. Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Cade Windstalker
#498 - 2015-04-23 20:16:02 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Why people are arguing on how T3 Dessies should or shouldn't be better than AFs, while T3 Cruisers can compete with BSs ??

I don't get it.


They're not, almost everyone agrees that the T3 Cruisers need a serious working over with the nerf-bat.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#499 - 2015-04-23 20:18:51 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Why people are arguing on how T3 Dessies should or shouldn't be better than AFs, while T3 Cruisers can compete with BSs ??

I don't get it.


Um.. because its a dev thread discussing changes to t3d? Seriously.. what kind of question is that? I just felt a few of my brain cells commit suicide by reading that.

Im sure there will be a threadnaught when t3 cruisers go under the knife. I'll be sure to say "Why all this arguing about T3 cruisers, when T3D are ruining frigate pvp and running around in cruiser sized tanks in a dessy?".

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#500 - 2015-04-23 20:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Cade Windstalker wrote:
They're not, almost everyone agrees that the T3 Cruisers need a serious working over with the nerf-bat.


T3 Cruisers can't compete with BSs ?
Really ?
That's not what i can witness in game actually.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Um.. because its a dev thread discussing changes to t3d? Seriously.. what kind of question is that? I just felt a few of my brain cells commit suicide by reading that.

Im sure there will be a threadnaught when t3 cruisers go under the knife. I'll be sure to say "Why all this arguing about T3 cruisers, when T3D are ruining frigate pvp and running around in cruiser sized tanks in a dessy?".


You should really think about getting laid, you hold so much hatred in yourself, it saddens me.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Because those are broken too with T2 resist profiles. Blink


Yes, that was my point actually.
Nobody cries about how T3 Cruisers can destroy T2 Dessies, but they do for AFs.
I mean, i see no pb about that, they are a superior class after all, aren't they ?
Dessies are MEANT to destroy frigates, that's their unique role, right ?
So a T3 Dessy shouldn't have any problem at all to reck an AF i guess.