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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#421 - 2015-04-23 06:03:44 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better.

But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things.

Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically.

You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics.

It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars.

Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships.


That's a very good post as normal from you, and I agree with you in terms of the tactics carried out by my two FC's, I would have done it differently but deferred to them. When I was war dec'd by Deadly Fingertips I mucked them around on Jita 4-4 undock, they did not renew the war dec, I wanted to do the same to Marmite, but one of my guys has a phobia about the lag in Jita.

But here again is the issue, there is nothing to fight over, going after a load of GTFO ships is like dealing with one or two Cynabals who come into your 0.0 system and pick off fast tackle and inattentive people. In 0.0 I could of course just keep everyone tight and they would run off and find easier prey, but that does not work in hisec.

I could have sorted it out and changed tack, but with GTA 5 being released I cannot get them interested and as such with them not logging in I have to go with other ways, which is the traditional way of avoiding war decs. And I bet so many people who get war dec'd end up with the same issue as I have. As a person I wanted to fight war decs, and so does the CEO of the other corp in my alliance, but if your players stop logging in what can you do.

Your alliance is my number one pick as mercs to hire, I have kept tabs on the mercs who do more than others and your alliance certainly does that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#422 - 2015-04-23 06:48:54 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets.
Just as low-sec is null-sec with safe stations ?

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#423 - 2015-04-23 10:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Wardecs are broken because GTA5.
If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.

Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7.

Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense.

Edit: I'll aust all the other trolls while I'm at it;

Large PVE only corps can't exist and that's bad because farming isk without consequence should be A-OK.
Wardecs ruin other people's gameplay because someone camping an undock somewhere makes it so you can't play EVE.
When you are mining, you can't see people coming in hisec becuase we all know mining lazors disable eyesight.
All corps are always perma-wardecced and there is nothing you can do about it.
Wardec by marmites/other big merc groups don't matter because marmites/other big merc groups suck but you still shouldn't play the game when you are decced.
NPC corps are fine as they stand because nullbears should always be able to go to jita with their spoils and sell them at markup without anyone hindering them.
Ganking is an exploit that should be banned. Wardecs should be removed because you can still gank.
Incursion runners are poor and therefore can't afford to form a corp and risk being wardecced.
When you are under a wardec you can't play the game like you want because someone could be flying a fast ship somewhere and you can't catch it.
When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.
There has to be reasons to fight for the defenders but don't force PVP on us!
wardecs promote attacking the weakest targets, because ibii and velators is where the money's at.
As aggressors, you should only fly the ships your target wants you to fly in locations they want you to be in as to not make it complicated fighting you.

I'll add more when I think of them.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#424 - 2015-04-23 11:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Danalee wrote:
Wardecs are broken because GTA5.
If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.

Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7.

Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense.

D.

Bear


Well it just proves the issue with war decs and what I keep pointing out on this thread, what benefit was there to fight? When my guys are active its just a couple of people in GTFO ships. So what do I offer my corpmates, a Svipul warping away or carrying out a fun team heist in GTA 5. Simply, get a war dec, hmmm lets go play another game... the choice is that stark and trying to crack a funny that misses the mark does not change that simple fact.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#425 - 2015-04-23 11:23:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX...


This one I'll do, next ones I refer you to my post above.

You argument falls under:
- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.
and
- When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.

Trolls : 0
Good guys: 1

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#426 - 2015-04-23 11:28:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Wardecs are broken because GTA5.
If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.

Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7.

Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense.

D.

Bear


Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX...

What are these GTFO ships you speak of?

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#427 - 2015-04-23 11:31:36 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX...


This one I'll do, next ones I refer you to my post above.

You argument falls under:
- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.
and
- When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.

Trolls : 0
Good guys: 1

D.

Bear


That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free Big smileShockedRoll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#428 - 2015-04-23 11:35:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX...

You argument falls under:
- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.
and
- When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.

Trolls : 0
Good guys: 1


That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free Big smileShockedRoll


they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5
Ergo: GTA5 is causing people not to play EVE.
they give NOFUX
Ergo: They aren't entertained and should be by the aggressor.

^^ Prove me wrong or stop whinging.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#429 - 2015-04-23 11:40:51 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX...

You argument falls under:
- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.
and
- When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.

Trolls : 0
Good guys: 1


That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free Big smileShockedRoll


they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5
Ergo: GTA5 is causing people not to play EVE.
they give NOFUX
Ergo: They aren't entertained and should be by the aggressor.

^^ Prove me wrong or stop whinging.

D.

Bear


Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#430 - 2015-04-23 11:43:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand.


If we wardec you, in your twisted reality does that mean that it is to provide YOU content?
What were you doing before the wardec and why wouldn't you continue doing it?

How on earth can you think anyone is responsible for your entertainment other than you?!
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with the wardec system? At all?!

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#431 - 2015-04-23 11:49:35 UTC
I see Dracvlad is still substituting his anecdotes for actual facts.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#432 - 2015-04-23 11:51:49 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand.


If we wardec you, in your twisted reality does that mean that it is to provide YOU content?
What were you doing before the wardec and why wouldn't you continue doing it?

How on earth can you think anyone is responsible for your entertainment other than you?!
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with the wardec system? At all?!

D.

Bear


I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#433 - 2015-04-23 11:53:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance.


Ok, so that's YOUR problem, YOUR corp mates weren't entertained by YOU so THEY went and played GTA.

Tell me again, about the topic at hand (wardecs being/not being broken) what is your stance and why?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Vechtor
Doomheim
#434 - 2015-04-23 12:16:52 UTC

I think people have misconceptions of what PVP means.
EVE provides many forms of PVP.

PVP is when one player takes advantage over another player, doesn't necessarily mean this has to happen by destroying their ships. Combat is just one form of PVP. There are plenty others.
There are lots of PVP in station trading. Lots of PVP in manipulating corps, infiltrating, spying, etc.
There are lots of PVP when you have to do something in low or null simply dodging combat.

I find it is really boring after all those years of EVE existence that we still have people complaining of game mechanics because of lack of PVP.
CODE. for example found the dumbest kind of PVP I could think of but still, it is PVP. If a miner or something looses a ship to CODE., well, adapt and find other means to PVP, meaning, to mine in safety and take advantage of CODE.'s dumbness.

People complain of wardec mechanics, that decs are broken, etc... A Wardec is a means for you to try to find combat. There are several others. If you go to lo-sec you'll find more combat. If you go to null you will find even more combat without the drawbacks from CONCORD. So, what’s there to complain?

I never understood why people complain of lack of PVP in hi-sec. There is a reason for it to be called hi-sec. There is a reason for lo-sec to be called lo-sec and there is a reason for null-sec to be called null-sec. There is a reason for you to have such ample spaces in lo-sec and null-sec too. Not satisfied yet? Well there are also WHs which are null-secs appearing everywhere.

Just my 2 cent.
Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#435 - 2015-04-23 12:25:00 UTC
Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts.

Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it.
You agree/understand?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#436 - 2015-04-23 12:35:20 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance.


Ok, so that's YOUR problem, YOUR corp mates weren't entertained by YOU so THEY went and played GTA.

Tell me again, about the topic at hand (wardecs being/not being broken) what is your stance and why?

D.

Bear

What the game was offering them, and what they could be bothered to do did not engage them, I was away for a week and when I came back they were not logging in, so hard to get back from that isn't it.

My stance is pretty simple, there has to be reasons to fight for the defenders, some advantage that they have, hopefully something in the new structures, or something that will shorten the war dec., the broken part which annoys you is people being able to drop to NPC corps or dissolve and recreate the corps, these balance against the continuous war dec with no objective or even aim, both are rubbish mechanics, but that's how it is, they balance off. I have read the other thread and found some interesting ideas there, but won't post there because I see that as a place for your group to express your ideas. Some people have engaged there to talk about the people you war dec, but still at the end of it all you get to the problem that hit me, will people log in?

The question is will people log in to play something that is not fun for them, no matter how you want to spin it that is the issue, initially I thought that the structures could create a reason to fight but to be honest the more I think about it the less and less that seems likely, people will just go for the lower level reward for example against the certain loss of that structure which they deem they cannot defend, and you lot will call for more and more penalties until they deem its so not worth it that they will stop playing.

In any case it hardly matters to me at this point I listened to what Lucas said, and acted on it, you can just add me and my alliance as another group that has decided to dis-engage.

And this is also where I now disengage with this thread, I have said what I thought, I enjoyed one war dec where there was an objective, I did not enjoy other war decs that only had an objective of green on the killboard and GTFO. I will now just play Eve at a very superficial basis, do nothing serious and just not log in if its something that does not interest me, like my corp mates.

\o/ and thanks for all the fish

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#437 - 2015-04-23 12:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Mister Dracvlad, to summarize, You argument falls under:

- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved.
and
- When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target.
and
- There has to be reasons to fight for the defenders but don't force PVP on us!
and
- When you are under a wardec you can't play the game like you want because someone could be flying a fast ship somewhere and you can't catch it.
and
- NPC corps are fine as they stand because nullbears should always be able to go to jita with their spoils and sell them at markup without anyone hindering them.
and
- farming isk without consequence should be A-OK.
and
- Wardec by marmites/other big merc groups don't matter because marmites/other big merc groups suck but you still shouldn't play the game when you are decced.
Also
dracvlad wrote:
Damn you and your facts, reality and common sense, I'm taking my ball and going home.

Final tally:
Trolls : 0
Good guys: 2


D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#438 - 2015-04-23 12:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Danalee wrote:
Wardecs are broken because GTA5.
Actually, what he's saying is that from his side wardecs are less entertaining than simply playing another game. Games are designed for entertainment, and even when you are losing should maintain a good level of entertainment. Some of EVE's mechanics (usually the older ones such as wardecs) aren't like that, because the difference in capability can mean that a player is unable to realistically do anything while being defeated, leading to low entertainment value. From a game design perspective these are pitfalls that should always be avoided. It's really not that hard to understand, and your constant misrepresentation of this is only discrediting yourself.

It all boils down to the way wardecs promote attacking the weakest targets. You aren't rewarded for taking on a higher challenge, like how level 1 missions pay less but are easier than level 2s, but instead you get more by picking valuable but incredibly weak targets.

Danalee wrote:
Noragen, you silly willy, it's any ship he can't be bothered to try and catch.
As aggressors, we should only fly the ships our target wants us to fly in locations they want us to be in.
I imagine it's the ships designed to evade if engaged. They are generally a chore to chase and 99% of the time safe. It's the same reason we don't bother trying to chase down cloaky T3s in null, because they'll only get caught if they want to.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Vechtor
Doomheim
#439 - 2015-04-23 13:00:10 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts.

Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it.
You agree/understand?

D.

Bear


OFC I agree/understand. Our corp is currently in a hi-sec war I dec'ed. Few fights have taken place since I started dec'ing this Corp and even tho I had bad luck not to get final blows for DUPO, we are winning in terms of isk lost/destroyed.

OFC EVE has to have pew pew PVP type working. My point is: it always had. What I do see, tho, is people who lacks capacity of adaptation complaining they don't know how to adapt. Doesn't make any sense.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#440 - 2015-04-23 18:33:48 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)