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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2015-04-22 23:02:32 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

this is a good post, it's great what thinking can get done while we're not busy hyperdunking a guy who uses basic mathematical and gameplay errors like a comma in his rants about how stupid the goonies are
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#602 - 2015-04-22 23:13:39 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
about how stupid the gewnies are

FTFY
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#603 - 2015-04-22 23:19:42 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:



they have basically done this.

they have reduced the amount of mercoxit in the anomaly belts by 85% while increasing the yield by 2%.
people who roll the belts will no longer mine the 10k per large belt, the 35k in the enorm or the 35k per colossal.
so now, instead of producing 2.8m units of excess per month, we will now produce between 200 and 450k dependant on which belts are mined,.
this will drastically reduce the supply to highsec, causing the price to climb.

you can already see it climbing, I wouldn't be surprised if it hits 12 or 14k by year end, and actually be worth hunting to mine in quantity.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#604 - 2015-04-22 23:22:51 UTC
The problem is that there is now much more incentive to mine and cycle anoms, which will counteract that reduction in supply of mercoxit. Rather than leave smaller portions in existing anoms, they should make mercoxit something that can only be found via exploration or static belts, making mercoxit mining its own profession.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#605 - 2015-04-22 23:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:



they have basically done this.

they have reduced the amount of mercoxit in the anomaly belts by 85% while increasing the yield by 2%.
people who roll the belts will no longer mine the 10k per large belt, the 35k in the enorm or the 35k per colossal.
so now, instead of producing 2.8m units of excess per month, we will now produce between 200 and 450k dependant on which belts are mined,.
this will drastically reduce the supply to highsec, causing the price to climb.

you can already see it climbing, I wouldn't be surprised if it hits 12 or 14k by year end, and actually be worth hunting to mine in quantity.


You're looking at merely 2x of what's needed instead of 20x, which is sort of a thing but not much of one, then what omni said
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#606 - 2015-04-22 23:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ncc 1709
more incentive? they increased the m3 of the 3 bigger anoms by a lot.
the large was 7m before, its 11m after,
the xl was 12m before its 16m after,
the xxl was 16m before its 22m after.
it will take much more work to clear the belts which will yield much less mercoxit.

as I said, the present xxl has 35k mercoxit. to get that much out of the new setup will take 5 rolls.
so 35k per 16m m3 changes
to 35k per 110m m3

just rolling the belt that many times will net you nearly 3 supers worth of minerals but less than 700m worth of mercoxit.

mining 3 supers worth with present mineral distribution nets you 17.6b worth of mercoxit.

if you cannot see that difference, then there is no hope
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#607 - 2015-04-22 23:54:46 UTC
My point is that even despite the proposed changes, mercoxit is still just another rock in the way of cycling belts rather than something that people specifically seek out for profit. I want to change that.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#608 - 2015-04-22 23:57:37 UTC
Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#609 - 2015-04-23 00:20:51 UTC
Would putting this in the Frig only WH that came with Therea be a possible way to make it lucrative as all parts of eve have access to these but they are unlivable space so it would be an expedition to go and mine this valuable mineral.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#610 - 2015-04-23 00:39:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else.


It requires a specialised laser. The rig is just to increases yield. And exactly the same argument/mechanic can be attached to ice mining - so I don't see traction either way.

*========


CCP Fozzie, I am concerned that your efforts with effect Parkinson's Law.

Quote:
The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource.


Similar to how TiDi was only a temporary grace for lag, it would reasonable to forecast that Null-Sec players will merely increase consumption of minerals to arrive at same point now; there will always be a shortage in self-sufficiency.

Have you considered the alternative direction, and reduce the spawn rates of ore in high-sec? I would cite the precedent success behind Ice anoms. This would also link into the effort of introducing industrial costs based on population usage. Lowers spawns would see both conflict over resources and diaspora of harvesters away from trade hubs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#611 - 2015-04-23 00:46:23 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
Querns wrote:
Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else.


It requires a specialised laser. The rig is just to increases yield. And exactly the same argument/mechanic can be attached to ice mining - so I don't see traction either way.

This'd be a more apt comparison if ice anomalies had a bunch of regular ore asteroids floating around them like dingleberries.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2015-04-23 01:02:21 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
My point is that even despite the proposed changes, mercoxit is still just another rock in the way of cycling belts rather than something that people specifically seek out for profit. I want to change that.


That's an interesting idea. I don't have any objection, but take with a grain of salt because I've never mined mercoxit, so I'm not sure I can see the big picture / ramifications.

From a more general perspective, the idea of having an ore-related option that is opportunistic (similar to ninja-mining gas?) seems great to me.
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#613 - 2015-04-23 02:21:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


If you skip the t1 production and only produce t2 objects, wouldn't you want t1 modules/ships to be cheaper? Do you even really deal with minerals? DO YOU EVEN MINE BRO?
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#614 - 2015-04-23 03:25:04 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
CCP Fozzie


I know there has been a lot of random junk in this thread, but hopefully you're still reading. It's time for me to give some constructive feedback for your consideration.

Mercoxit


I believe that we need a strong candidate to make cherry picking (or "Ninja Mining") a profession, and Mercoxit would serve that purpose greatly. Morphite is also greatly oversupplied at the moment and is a near negligible cost in t2 equipment. Therefore, I'm suggesting that we completely remove Mercoxit from all ore anoms that spawn from nullsec industrial upgrades. Here's why:

Oversupply
As nullsec mining becomes more worthwhile, more people will be stripping and cycling ore anomalies. With a consistent cycling of belts, the supply of Mercoxit/Morphite will continue to increase, further dunking the price. Mercoxit alone is large (40m3), but compressed Mercoxit is only 0.1 m3 (wtf?), so it is exceptionally easy to get to an upgraded refinery and ship to empire. This means that most mercoxit mined will easily get to market.

Low Income per Hour
While an individual Mercoxit rock is "valuable", Mercoxit is 40m3 per unit. Furthermore, Mercoxit is mined significantly slower than any other ore.

A fully boosted hulk mines ore at about 3421 m3/min excluding drones.

A fully boosted hulk with mercoxit rig mines Mercoxit at about 2165 m3/min (drones are not possible). This means that you're mining about 54 units of mercoxit a minute in a hulk, equating to approximately 8262 units of morphite every hour- approximately 57 mil per hour assuming you have a hauler.

As the refine rate of mercoxit increases from 293->300 and as the overall supply increases, that isk per hour will fall even further. A max hulk pilot can make upwards of 70 mil isk/hr on other ores with existing prices. (note: not many people use hulks in null because of clicks and risk)

Suggestion
Remove mercoxit from all ore anomalies. Leave mercoxit in static belts and in scannable sites in nullsec. Reduce the m3 on mercoxit to a reasonable size that allows for smaller (ninja) ships to mine it. Perhaps give a mercoxit mining bonus to mining frigates.

Potential Results
In making those changes, Mercoxit will turn cherry picking into a profession. There will be meaningful rewards in any player traversing nullsec looking for Mercoxit deposits and scan-able sites with Mercoxit. There are no sites that currently are a huge "win" for a miner or explorer- but making this change would enable the mining types to have "jackpots" where they have potential to make some serious ISK mining Mercoxit. This would also make it worthwhile for anyone in the game to scan down wormholes and seek out mercoxit in wh space- even for highsec miners.

Arkonor/Bistot
I would not consider these ores of being worthy of ninja-mining even with the upcoming changes. There will be a consistent supply of Arkonor/Bistot coming from ore anoms, and without mining boosts, the income of ninja mining Arkonor and Bistot would still be pretty low for an individual account.



A change such as the above would give all players an opportunity to do some high risk ninja-mining that would lead to greater rewards, rather than making all mining a rather repetitive task with no real chance of "hitting it big".


Thanks to Querns for helping with this data.

I am a large t2 producer I agree with all of what he said. I support this idea.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#615 - 2015-04-23 04:09:14 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt?

Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff.
EvilweaselSA wrote:

ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012

oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals

Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show.
Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those:
1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer.
2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots.
3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency.
4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit.


Just did some quick and simple math....keep in mind the simple part---i.e. I didn't sit down and figure damage types, resists, just back of the envelope kind of thing....

Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts.

And yeah, your mining yield wont be that great either...but better than your mining yield if your ship is dead.


Or they just bump you and now your Skiff is useless. If only you were in the actual barge, you'd be done by the time they arrive and not there anymore, but no, gotta sit there and troll with Skiffs.

Now without sarcasm, I know Skiff is an efficient solution to troll gankbears. Unfortunately, that's the only thing it's efficient with. You can troll in it, and it fares well, you try to mine in it - you are wrong.

Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you.


Code can't be everywhere at once. I've mined plenty, semi-afk in HS and never once been bumped. So, I have to think you are whining way too much.

And do the math again on skiff vs. covetor. You have to take the difference between what the skiff mines vs. what the covetor mines. And 1 dead covetor means you are out a somewhat sizeable amount of isk....which means you'll have to mine even longer to recover that loss.

Or just bite the bullet and go to null. Obviously not to the Goons or an affiliated alliance as you've basically crapped in your mess kit on that one. But in 6 months who knows....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2015-04-23 04:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sizeof Void wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts.

Actually, in this particular case, you'd probably want to upship to cruisers, or maybe a BC, rather than dessies.

However, in high sec, you rarely run across a fully tanked Skiff - most of them compromise the tank by having some sort of mining upgrade somewhere in the fit. And, they almost never overheat - high sec miners tend to be simi-AFK, probably haven't trained up Thermodynamics, and/or simply forget (or don't know) how to overheat their modules. Most high sec miners have very limited experience with PVP, you know.


If you don't tank your skiff and you know there are HS gankers about you are a moron and you deserve what you get. If you want to rage against anyone go in your bathroom and looki in the mirror.

Regarding overheating...not my problem that HS players do not use everything to their advantage. Either adapt or go back to being a poop socking WoW player.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#617 - 2015-04-23 04:15:48 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you.


Ok, I really was not planning to get involved again, but let's be clear: This is an entirely useless statement.

If you wanted to go this route the appropriate calculation should have been:

((Covertor Isk Cost / (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) - ((Covetor Mining Rate - Skiff Mining Rate) Isk/Hr)) = X

If X is greater than 0, Covetor mining is economical compared to skiffs. If it is negative, Skiff is the winner.

Second, at a quick glance, EFT tells me that a Covetor gets almost exactly 20% yield more than a Skiff, while a fully fit Covetor costs 50 million.

So are you seriously telling me the 20% increase from Skiff to Covetor allows you to pay off a 50 mil isk Covetor in 3-5 hours of mining?

That means the skiff in highsec is pulling in 50-83 million an hour! WHAT? That doesn't resemble the 20 million isk/hour numbers I hear tossed around all the time by highsec miners!

I CALL COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT.

But I forgive you, since
Basil Pupkin wrote:
numbers are so difficult to grasp.



Not empty quoting....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#618 - 2015-04-23 04:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
So I go to zkilloard and look at the skiff ship...and I see most of the losses, if not all, on the front page are in low sec or null. I even see, OMFG, the occasional catalyst loss to a...F***ING skiff....in HS.

WTF? Basil told me this was a horrible ship to fly.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mario Putzo
#619 - 2015-04-23 04:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


If you skip the t1 production and only produce t2 objects, wouldn't you want t1 modules/ships to be cheaper? Do you even really deal with minerals? DO YOU EVEN MINE BRO?


Wouldn't really matter either way...just roll the price into the final product. Since T2 has no price ceiling except direct market competition with other producers. Unlike T1 production that has competition not only with other producers, but Meta Modules that are seeded into the game any time someone kills a rat (and it drops loot of course).

and nah no mining. when I started producing i mined...but after i made my first bil I just turned to buy orders...let someone else do the **** work while I play the game. Only stuff I don't buy order are mid and high ends...because you can get them super easy in meta mods, which I get plenty off missions in HS or ratting/anoms in LS/NS.

In fact, when Trit, Pyrite and Mex tank...ill probably make even more of a profit than I do now....so I guess I should be thanking CCP...to bad its going to take a new bro a year or so to get the skills and capital together to be able to fund worthwhile production since T1 module production is going to be largely irrelevant moving forward (in terms of putting it on market of course.)
Munchkin bait
Doomheim
#620 - 2015-04-23 04:33:38 UTC
Uh oh game over.

Well since CCP still has not released any subscription numbers we have to go on 3rd party numbers of minus 18%. ( If the numbers where good as they were in the past they would not have any trouble showing them, speculation! ) That 18 % was mostly from miners throwing in the towel. http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2015/04/as-we-approach-eve-onlines-12th.html

Now thanks to a big push from the CSM null sec block high sec mining will be nerfed again! Trit is tthe only thing HS had to offer in this game for people who want to be industral toons in HS! Well with the buff of trit in the higher end ores and the increase of zydrine mega for ships will strain the HS player.

CSM expects HS players will suddenly want to listen to teen something 20 something commanders ordering them what to do! Sorry, not happening. I expect another 18% of players say door and leave! Between miners switching to mission running and scan sites utterly worthless unless you have a gand of 4 to catch the warping cans! What is the average player suppose to do??? Let me guess buy PLEX CARDS to play!!!!!!!!!! Not going to happen !!! Door please!!!!!

Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%%

I magine if I could fly a tech one frigate that would match 85% of the PVP power of a Paladin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be alot of PVP players would go door!!!! Thnaks for memory CCP/CSM but my 3 account are done! Ask the CSM to pick up my bill!!!!!