These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

First post First post First post
Author
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#561 - 2015-04-22 11:59:21 UTC
The high sec vs null sec argument in this thread is hilarious.

This change comes at the exact same time that CCP is making it easier for anyone to try their hand at null sec. And yet you have this mentality where certain players seem to believe they were ordained to only ever mine in high sec.

"Rewarding" null sec is somehow unfair because of some mythical barrier that only allows certain players to mine or play in null sec.

It's been a few years since I started playing but I seem to recall staying in high sec and mining or moving out to null as a choice I made.

But maybe I'm wrong and I was in fact sub-consciously manipulated into to heading out to null to be a goon slave, doomed to suck crok and pay tower taxes the rest of my days in Eve.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#562 - 2015-04-22 12:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Yroc Jannseen wrote:

But maybe I'm wrong and I was in fact sub-consciously manipulated into to heading out to null to be a goon slave, doomed to suck crok and pay tower taxes the rest of my days in Eve.


There are wave projectors, man, all placed across the stragetic points on the perimeter of the Empire, man. I've seen one of these installations hidden inside a Dark Ochre roid in Catch region!

Someone is assembling an army of mindless, mathless miners... for purposes unknown. It is the end of the beginning!

On topic: I wish more Nocxium, on balance, would be supplied from Lowsec. Sad Here is the chance to buff LS mining a bit more and attract people from Hisecks. Bear
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#563 - 2015-04-22 13:03:18 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:

The rub on JFs is while they currently enable nullsec to function, it's not without a cost. Currently, I pay 300 isk per m^3 to have things shipped from empire to nullsec, and that is to Deklein, a region that is 2j from empire. If you wanna see some serious highway robbery, check out Black Frog's freight costs. Everything coming into nullsec has that tax applied to it. Meanwhile, highsec enjoys a vast ecosystem of considerably safer and significantly cheaper public courier services.

The changes described in the OP help to lessen the need of nullsec on the almighty jump freighter by not only improving nullsec mineral compositions, but also by making it not such an obviously terrible economic bargain to do so.

Also, gun mining died much earlier, when CCP removed the vast majority of t1 drops from rats. Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.


Booohooo you have to pay ISK for a service that people ask more of because of the risk. CCP doesn't force you to use Black Frog, You choose to. You could mine the minerals in Deklein (i know :effort:) but you don't.

A) Because your miners are not afforded any real protection outside of numbers in local
B) Because your alliance does not actively contribute to funding mining and industry (import its better isk/hr right).
C) Because your members are at constant risk of AWOX
D) Because of the above more people leave NS mining in Deklein and less people venture into it.

In regards to gun mining...if it was dead why did CCP just nerf it by 45% last spring?

You don't know much about production do you, after all you seem to be under the impression there exists a Blue Print that can build anything in the game if you throw enough isk at it. T1 production walks a very finite line between worth it and not worth it, the changes to production costs make it very much not worth it (if they remain as stands).

If this is really a NS change for more self sufficiency, less dependency on JFs from HS, why does the Zydrine and Megacyte change need to exist at all? It doesn't offer anything to their desired change...except prompt people into doing JF runs from NS to HS.

Its just nonsense and will only drive T1 production (in LS and HS) down as a result of increase Meta module costs which is going to happen because HS folks only source of Mega and Zydrine is from gun mining. Which means HS producers will drive up the price through consumption and reprocessing, and thats not even the end of it, once folks realize making T1 mods is a waste of cash (which it nearly is right now anyway), then Faction stuff will start to rise in price...which means more LP grinding...how do you get LP? Missions which seed Meta Mods (yay!), but you still need T1 mods...Game of Alts indeed. If folks in NS don't have a mission running alt, or Incursion alt...you should get one, because having the monopoly on readily available T1 mods, gives you a nice foothold in the Faction Mod market. Which ultimately is contradictory to the whole "get people into NS" thing, since doing missions and making T1 mods from your reprocessed loot into faction mods from your earned LP is going to eclipse anything production wise in NS. To the point you will be quite able to afford importing anything you want from HS through Black Frog.

This isn't rocket science man.

Im happy CCP is tweaking NS ore, but they are being very short sighted with the changes to production requirements. The latter is an unneeded change to accomplish their set goals.

We don't use black frog, they're far too expensive. Also, again, in what world do you live in where a JF is ever at risk? They are literally unkillable if you fly them right.

The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.

The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.

You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#564 - 2015-04-22 13:18:45 UTC
Odin Shadow wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Odin Shadow wrote:
your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff

If only I were a bot fleet...

Otherwise, I'm already in null, but main beneficiary of this change is not a human player.


you have evidence about this right?

do you accept unreliable personal recollections that don't even claim to extend closer to today than three years ago
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#565 - 2015-04-22 14:20:22 UTC
So... I did a thing with my Refinery spreadsheet. There is now a mineral composition ratio comparison sheet. I've copied it and made the sheet available. Let me know what you think.

Sold's Refinery SS

A null result (nothing listed) means there was no mineral content of that type. A 100% result means the mineral content of that ore has not changed. A 0% result means that mineral content for that particular ore was completely eliminated. Skills are set to the standard hisec NPC station refine rate of 72.36% (what used to be perfect). Row 2 is hidden for sorting purposes.

tl;dr: Using current mineral values everything that is being changed except for Crokite will increase in value. Zydrine content is being moved to lo-sec ores. Megacyte is being moved to Arkonor. Isogen content is being increased, but only in losec.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Mario Putzo
#566 - 2015-04-22 15:27:46 UTC
Querns wrote:

The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.

The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.

You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.


Im not sure why you keep bringing up mining isk/hr when you reply to me. I think its just groovy CCP is attempting to make mining more appealing to folks in NS, as ive said numerous times now. I am talking about module production, and you clearly have no real understanding of how that system works. So i don't know if you are just trolling, or preserving the narrative (hard to tell with Goon forum warriors sometimes). Maybe if you ask Mynnna real nice he will give you a rundown on how T1 production works in relationship vs Meta modules.

Fun fact, most T1 module production is already produced at a net loss...unless you source the material yourself (mining + missions > gun mining, or through some corp organized mining + production venture). The changes to Zyd and Mega only push down the value of T1 mods that much further, simply because their valuation is hard capped by the valuation of Meta mods, which are better modules to use on a ship, and as such in higher demand.

Will it be a wasteland, no, but anyone who understands production won't be producing T1 modules outside personal usage (Faction BPs), in fact, most producers I know left that game last spring when gun mining changes created a glut of meta mods on markets, thus driving down the price cap on T1 mods.


















Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#567 - 2015-04-22 15:39:32 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:

The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.

The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.

You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.


Im not sure why you keep bringing up mining isk/hr when you reply to me. I think its just groovy CCP is attempting to make mining more appealing to folks in NS, as ive said numerous times now. I am talking about module production, and you clearly have no real understanding of how that system works. So i don't know if you are just trolling, or preserving the narrative (hard to tell with Goon forum warriors sometimes). Maybe if you ask Mynnna real nice he will give you a rundown on how T1 production works in relationship vs Meta modules.

Fun fact, most T1 module production is already produced at a net loss...unless you source the material yourself (mining + missions > gun mining, or through some corp organized mining + production venture). The changes to Zyd and Mega only push down the value of T1 mods that much further, simply because their valuation is hard capped by the valuation of Meta mods, which are better modules to use on a ship, and as such in higher demand.

Will it be a wasteland, no, but anyone who understands production won't be producing T1 modules outside personal usage (Faction BPs), in fact, most producers I know left that game last spring when gun mining changes created a glut of meta mods on markets, thus driving down the price cap on T1 mods.

Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.

T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#568 - 2015-04-22 15:53:50 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space.


You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo? Blink


HS + LS = 2.



Nope, actual formula is (HS + LS) / 4 Empires = 0.5 , or one Jita trade alt. Twisted

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Mario Putzo
#569 - 2015-04-22 16:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:

Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.

T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.


Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds).

The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules.
But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#570 - 2015-04-22 16:04:50 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:

Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.

T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.


Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds).

The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules.
But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces.

So... you're doing production that you KNOW to be unprofitable? :psyduck:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#571 - 2015-04-22 16:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Also, T1 production can be done at a profit if you use a POS and do enough runs to fully take advantage of the -2% bonus.

e: Taking random samples from eve-industry, I am seeing more T1 things that are profitable to make than not, even without the POS ME bonus.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#572 - 2015-04-22 16:16:47 UTC
Querns wrote:
Also, T1 production can be done at a profit if you use a POS and do enough runs to fully take advantage of the -2% bonus.

e: Taking random samples from eve-industry, I am seeing more T1 things that are profitable to make than not, even without the POS ME bonus.


It won't support as much production but selling outside of Jita can help turn a profit even if producing in a station.
Mario Putzo
#573 - 2015-04-22 16:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:

Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.

T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.


Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds).

The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules.
But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces.

So... you're doing production that you KNOW to be unprofitable? :psyduck:


Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#574 - 2015-04-22 16:45:47 UTC
"Put off the change until every niggling real or imagined flaw is resolved" is one of the oldest gaffes in the book.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#575 - 2015-04-22 16:46:35 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#576 - 2015-04-22 16:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
Querns wrote:
"Put off the change until every niggling real or imagined flaw is resolved" is one of the oldest gaffes in the book.

we cannot attempt to cure cancer until we have put ice on every stubbed toe
Mario Putzo
#577 - 2015-04-22 16:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this.


Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#578 - 2015-04-22 16:55:50 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this.


Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.


Price is never capped by other items only the volume they are moved
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#579 - 2015-04-22 16:57:48 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Mario Putzo
#580 - 2015-04-22 17:06:45 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.


I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.


Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this.


Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.


Price is never capped by other items only the volume they are moved


It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way? T1 mods require more fitting, for less result (in most cases) compared to their meta equivalents. Only a moron would buy an inferior product for more money. Thus the pricing is hard capped because meta mods are just plain better overall.

Mega Pulse 1 vs Mega Modulated Pulse for example.

CPU, 50/40
Activation, 35/28.8
Optimal 21000/25200
DMGMOD 3/3.6

With all else being the same...why would anyone ever buy Mega Pulse 1 when Mega Modulated is superior? They wouldn't, unless they can't afford Mega Modulated...in which case rolling the cost increase into the price is irrelevant, since Mega Pulse is capped at the cost of Mega Modulated.